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Typhonian interpretation of enochian magick

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 Anonymous
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I am interesting in Typhonian interpretation or rather view on enochian magick. Far as I know only elaboration of this branch of magick (from the Typhonian point of view) is explored in “Enochian Magick” by Michael Staley published in Starfire, Vol. I No. 4. Unfortunately I don’t have managed to obtain it yet. So, if there is possibility to get this article or any other kind information about this topic I will be very happy.
I have read lot of book about this subject but more of them are quite shallow except Benjamin Rowes “The Book Of The Seniors” and “Enochian Temples”, which are on the other hand very complicated and subjective.
It will be of great help if you have some suggestion about books or articles or even better practical instruction.


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Michael Staley
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There's no article called "Enochian Magic" in Starfire Vol 1 No 4. The nearest to it is an article on "The Vision and the Voice" which discusses that work in general - including some background material on Enochian, Dee & Kelley, etc. - before going on to consider elements of the Vision of the Fifth Aethyr. This will be included in the "Best of Starfire Volume One" collection of articles and artwork scheduled for publication in the first months of 2010.

There's no particular Typhonian view, use or interpretation of Enochian to date, though it something which is of great interest to myself and my colleagues.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
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Michael,
Many thanks for information. I am especially happy to hear that “Best of Starfire Volume One” will see the light of the day so soon. I have hardly wait for it since you have mentioned it some of yours post early this year. As great admirer of Starfire publication I will pre-order it soon it would be possible.
.........................
Probably I have used wrong words in my post. It is quite obvious that there is no specific typhonian enochian magic. I actually try to get some information about enochian scrying (if I can call it by that name). Some of books on that subject, including “Enochian World of Aleister Crowley” by Lon Milo DuQuette and Christopher S. Hyatt, much more confuse my than give some information. Books by Benjamin Rowe, which I have mentioned in my previous post, were really interesting and original. He wasn’t part of some particular order, but he has connection with Louis Martinié and Nema (books are publish by Black Moon Publishing). On the other hand, if my memory was right, Kenneth Granth never wrote about his dealing with Enochian magick, so I was really interested, because of my great respect and love for his work, is there some experiments with enochiana by him.
I don’t have any experience in that part and I am not member of any magickal group or organisation (in my part of the world it isn’t easy to find any organisation, especially trustful), so any advice will be of great help to me.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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Hi Petarpan

I've been dipping ever deeper into Enochian for some time now and one of the things I have found is to step back and making several decisions which the system asks you to make. I think that taking Enochian from a Typhonian perspective also requires such a stepping back and looking at how the system we have has moved down through the recent centuries.

My thoughts on this is that the system was channelled by Dee and Kelley who were very much men of their times. As such there is a Christian "desktop theme" to the proceedings, which, when filtered by what can perhaps be described as Kelley's paranoia with the system led to many visions depicting "wrath of god" type imagery. I also think that we must consider much material may be lost.

My hunch is that Dee and Kelley were really two sides of the same coin where the answers channelled by EK were understandable by and framed for Dee. This is not to say that Dee was not psychic - there are suggestions that he was; however perhaps he tended to be more left brained and so needed his logical mind active so as to take the questions to places where he wanted to go. Hence his need to employ a seer.

Actually there are suggestions that Dee, Kelley, Jane Dee and Joanna Kelley were viewed as one unit by the entities. If we consider that Kelley was not having a laugh with the wife-swap episode perhaps we could assign elemental symbolism to each person and explore what the swap might have meant on that level.

Assuming that you take the reality of the Enochian system on face value (and I do) I perhaps suggests an important decision you might want to take early on in your investigations. You could go the "authentic Elizabethan" route and try to recreate exactly what Dee did as closely as possible. The Angels did give Dee some instruction as what to do; however the system is self booting in that they were already talking to him prior to giving him instructions.

If you wanted to go this root I would read histories of the time such as the excellent "The Queens Conjurer" by Benjamin Woolley. or books by Francis Yates. Try to get your head around how Elizabeth
magicians thought and acted - they would not for example open with the LBRP but (as we see with Dee) prayers and often long rambling liturgies and charges. You will however be a bit on a limb as to researching how Dee used the magic (or even if he ever was). He was told not too by the Angels and if he ever did then (AFAIK) those pages are lost. Of course a trawl through the state libraries of Eastern Europe might be fruitful if you have the time....

The other choice you could make would be to build up your own spiritual contact with the entities and let them guide you as to how to develope your own "Enochian" system (I don't believe that Dee actually ever used the term "Enochian"). This approach to me is of course less scholarly but perhaps more magical and is certainly the approach I favour and practise.

Speaking for myself, I have found that I just make the relevant calls then sit back in meditation to see what comes to me. Often I have found that the entities are eager to communicate and seem to exist just below the surface or the everyday reality. For example early on I asked the question as to which version of the tablets to use - The Dee and Kelley original, The reformed tablet; even the Tyson version. My approach was to call EHNB using the tablet of union and ask the question - I received an answer - one useful to me answered audibly in a way which suggested that it did not come from my subconscious and accompanied by a vision; however of course I wont bore people with that story here as I would not want to influence anyone elses results.

For me, I am interested in exploring the system away from any cultural artefacts of Dee's day (not that I don't find them interesting). For example what topology would the system take if Dee wasn't Christian, or he lived in modern times or he was an artist or particle physicist rather than a mathematician? Its even interesting to note that the system they received is very masculine; perhaps as a result of being filtered through Dee and Kelley. We can only speculate what might have happened had Jane and Joanna been more involved with the experiments.

if you wanted to explore the system from a Typhonian perspective perhaps you would need to attempt to work with the entities from that mindset. Perhaps you could work with some of the deities and techniques Kenneth Grant discusses and then see how that might lead you to interpret the system in your own way. My view and experience is that the Enochian entities shape the experience around the magicians, so if you are already a Typhonian explorer, than it will be through these lenses that things will be shown to you.

In the new edition of Hidden Lore there are some of Steffi Grants wonderful illustrations of the tables, and the system is briefly mentioned in the trilogies however it doesn't seem to be something explored in depth.

I'll be happy to discuss this all in more detail - just PM me, here or on SL.

Cheers Paolo


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 Anonymous
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Thanks Paolo,
I have read some of books about Dee and Kelly; I found really interesting Gustav Meyrink – “The Angel of the West Window” (which is fictionalized biography Of John Dee), “The Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age” by Frances Yates and also part about Dee in brilliant Peter Grey’s “Red Goddess”, for “tuning in to the current”. But what I missing is some good book about using tablets, banners and starting with working. I started to read “Golden Dawn Enochian Magic” by Pat Zalewski but far as a get with book I am not very happy with it, it seems to me over compicated. Maybe is just impression of someone who is beginner in this, but it really miss straight forwardness of, for example, “Typhonian Teratomas: The Shadows of the Abyss” by Mishlen Linden, which really opening my way for dealing with Shadow Tarot.
I guess that I must be more patient and get deeper into material and experiments and then try to check my experience with someone. Also I will re-read Crowley’s (not very “users friendly”) Liber LXXXIX vel Chanokh, and try to find some sense on my own.
By the way, you have mentioned Tyson version, what do you think about his book about Enochian? I found his book about Sex magick “Sexual Alchemy” and also “Liber Lilith” quite good.


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Anonymous
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Hi Peterpan

There isn't really much which details getting started with Enochian. Off the top of my head I think that I found/find the following books most helpful.

1) Enochian Vision Magick: Lon Milo Duquette. This book explores the system as described by Dee and looks ah how the author has adapted the system for his own use.

2) Enochian Magic for Beginners: Donald Tyson. I really like this book despite it getting some bad press from certain quarters. Tyson describes the system very well and his research is impeccable. He does steer away into some of his own ideas regarding the Enochiana, but is always very clear to differentiate his own ideas. I personally don't buy into the apocalyptic interpretations but find the rest of the book excellent.

3) Enochian Dictionary: Donald Laycock. This is the oldest published reference I can find to the comment that the Angelickal language has been analysed and found to contain parts of speech and a syntax etc, however I haven't been able to trace the source - I actually suspect that the original analysis of the language may well have came from Crowley - he was certainly skilled enough with language to have carried this out. However if anyone knows any different I am all ears.

4) Ben Rowe's writings on the internet.

These books have moved away from the golden dawn take on the system perhaps suffer from trying to be too synthetic (Mathers tried to tied everything together) and of course they did not have access to many of Dee's papers.

Liber Chanokh is very interesting and whilst very succinct does not go into details leaving plenty of ambiguities (which is not a bad thing as it is in ambiguities and gaps that magic manifests)

If you want to jump in the deep end you could go for a read of the original material. Ian Rons has posted high quality scans of much of this on his website - http://www.themagickalreview.org/enochian/mss/ - although Dee's handwriting makes this pretty hard going. However (and going out on a limb here) I have found that simply having a copy of the TFR on hand and occasionally dipping into it; reading aloud the diary entries is great for building atmosphere and (subjectively speaking) creating effects.

To me it all really gets back to my earlier suggestion that with the calls, you have all you need to make contact, start with these and see what happens - be particularly attentive to your dreams and any oddness which happens over the following few days.

I am not sure how exactly they work and we can only speculate - perhaps all they do is energise your aura making you more responsive to what is already there however I have founded repeatedly that there is a perichoresis from deeper levels which occurs for me whenever I use the calls.

You might also be interested in Ordines Descendens which came out a few years ago. The work claims to be one of Dee's lost manuscripts, which is certainly nonsense; however the author looks at the demonic aspect of the system and describes it quite well although it does try to be overtly satanic for the sake of it. I wouldn't describe it as Typhonian at all however, and its feel and presentation suggests a goetic template which makes it a bit of a mish-mash in my opinion. Like the Simon Necronomicon, I don't think it really matters whether it is authentic or not except from an academic perspective; which is certainly not one of my interests.

cheers Paolo


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 Anonymous
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"Paolo_sammut" wrote:
You will however be a bit on a limb as to researching how Dee used the magic (or even if he ever was). He was told not too by the Angels and if he ever did then (AFAIK) those pages are lost. Of course a trawl through the state libraries of Eastern Europe might be fruitful if you have the time....

What state libraries are you referring to? I know Dee and Kelley spent time in Cesky Krumlov and Trebon under the patronage of the Rosenbergs, as well as Prague, but am not aware of any archival material..


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michaelclarke18
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What state libraries are you referring to? I know Dee and Kelley spent time in Cesky Krumlov and Trebon under the patronage of the Rosenbergs, as well as Prague, but am not aware of any archival material..

There is some material in the British Museum and also some additional material in the Oxford Bodleian Library. I know of no material that is held in any other library and I suspect that it could well be a fruitless search.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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I dont know of anything except the libraries which MichaelClark18 suggest. However I suggest that such locations might prove fruitful for further research. Who knows what may (or may not) be there. Having said that, perhaps the important thing is to build up real contacts with the entities rather than read the diaries of previous contactees 🙂


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michaelclarke18
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Far as I know only elaboration of this branch of magick (from the Typhonian point of view) is explored in “Enochian Magick” by Michael Staley published in Starfire, Vol. I No. 4. Unfortunately I don’t have managed to obtain it yet. So, if there is possibility to get this article or any other kind information about this topic I will be very happy.

I believe the appropriate permission has been sought:-

The Vision and the Voice

http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/dplanet/staley/staley13.htm


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 Anonymous
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"Paolo_sammut" wrote:
Having said that, perhaps the important thing is to build up real contacts with the entities rather than read the diaries of previous contactees 🙂

That's presuming, of course, the angels' role is to serve our temporal and finite interests which, given the completely different evolutionary scale, is hardly plausible. If anything, Dee's reputation was ruined from obeying the angels and Kelley, even though he was allegedly bipolar or a borderline personality, displayed far more objective awareness in not wanting to continue with the skrying. There is something extremely tragic and comic about the duo - the Abbott and Costello of the Renaissance occult world.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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Perhaps. My approach is just to strike up a conversation and see where it wants to go. Nothing to do with initiation, commanding the angels or trying to persuade them to help me win the lottery. Lets move away from medieval ideas and just explore.


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ianrons
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peterpan,

As regards your general question, I think unfortunately you will have to abandon the idea of "good textbooks" on Enochian magick. The only reference point we have is Dee's diaries themselves, and practically everything that has come since has been quite limited or (usually) downright misleading as regards the magickal system. I am particularly talking about the Golden Dawn material, but no serious textual analysis of the diaries yet exists, which has hampered interpretations by practitioners and academics alike. However, if you want to get a flavour for the material without plunging into the deep end, I would recommend the following:

Peterson, Joseph, John Dee's Five Books of Mystery, published by Weiser.
-or-
Whitby, Christopher. John Dee’s Actions with Spirits: 22 December 1581 to 23 May 1583. Available at EThOS.

Casaubon, Meric, A True and Faithful Relation... In print, the Magickal Childe edition contains material covered by Josten as noted below.

Josten, C.H., “An Unknown Chapter in the Life of John Dee”, in The Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes, Vol. 28 (1965), pp.223–57. Available at JSTOR. [Contains a parcel of material not contained in Casaubon.]

That's all the available material, though in secondary sources. Take with a pinch of salt any "interpretations" of that material. The one given by Grant in Outside the Circles of Time is really bizarre.


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 Anonymous
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Holding thoughts/contributions on this thread for now as it's late but just wanted to say how nice it is to see you back Ian! Hope all is well with you!
I'm looking forward to you're thoughts here as I know this is your "area" and have never been at a lost for something to contemplate after reading your posts!

All the best,
Kym


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ianrons
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Am well thanks, and ditto. Feelin' the love! 🙂


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 Anonymous
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Topic starter  

Many thanks to all of you,
It is wonderful to have such a help.
Thanks michaelclarke18 for PM (and obtaining me with text that I search), also many thanks Paolo for reminding me on SL site. I haven’t visit it for some time, so it was nice to find lots of interesting information on forum with two subjects “Enochian Resonances” and “Goetia & Michael Bertiaux”.


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 Anonymous
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Hi;
One keeps losing connection:-briefly;
Have read Michael Staley's comments on Grant; Brilliant!
Tried a Set working working last night---
First in decades!
Tunnel led to gorgeous orange desert in South;
Lots of Horned God forms appeared;----
Reminiscent of 'The ( Enochian ) Horned One: The First, True Creator.'
The systems seem to fit; will experiment further---
Tremendously powerful, throughout!
VERY Interesting!
One is far more Typhonian than previously recognised!
Nice One; Michael; Will study further!...
Serenity---ONEALL


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 Anonymous
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A set of tools and techniques that seems to work incredibly well no matter how they are executed that allow one communication with a variety of very alien like "Angels" and "extra-terrestrial" entities of a high order of intelligence (entities which many occultists seem to find untrustworthy and up to no good), I think Enochian Magick fits in perfectly with the Typhonian current. Even more so when you consider it's connections to the Necronomicon Mythos, one could consider that communion with the Enochian Angels could be seen as means of obtaining bits and pieces of the Necronomicon and it's gnosis.


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 Anonymous
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In fact the main reason that I had immediately taken an interest in Enochian Magick was in its correlations to extra terrestrial beings, the strange language, the weird letters and symbols, the table of practice that very well could have functioned as some form of reciever, the powerful and wise nature of the entities, all of these factors carried with them a feel and mystique that I found reminiscent of my childhood fascination with ufo's and E.T.'s. To take it another step further, the fact that Enochian has a reputation for being a system that "works" spoke to my childhood fantasy of making contact with said E.T.'s.
Also, if you consider that, in the realm of strange and paranormal experiences, what many recognize today as extra terrestrial experiences; sightings, abductions, etc, a medieval or renaissance era individual would see as an Angelic (or demonic, depending on the nature thereof) experience.
I think that due to the adaptability and power of the techniques combined with it's inherent weirdness resulting in "contact" makes it a perfect tool for the magician tapping the Typhonian current.


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 Anonymous
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Has anyone noticed any follow up or recovery after this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article401766.ece


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OKontrair
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 Anonymous
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The items I photographed when they were at the British Museum were thus:


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 Anonymous
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A couple of years ago when I was starting out, I kept finding references online saying that LAM was an Enochian entity that Crowley contacted through Enochian Magic. I haven't been able to find any explanation of this anywhere.


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ianrons
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"666TSAEB" wrote:
Has anyone noticed any follow up or recovery after this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article401766.ece

The thief was caught pretty quickly. But more importantly it's not actually John Dee's ball (which is not in the Albert Hall either), but a fake (prob. early 20thC), as Alan Thorogood has quite conclusively shown based on an examination of the accompanying MS. There was some discussion of this on the Enochian mailing lists back then.

"AEternitas" wrote:
I think Enochian Magick fits in perfectly with the Typhonian current. Even more so when you consider it's connections to the Necronomicon Mythos, one could consider that communion with the Enochian Angels could be seen as means of obtaining bits and pieces of the Necronomicon and it's gnosis.

I'm so glad you Typhonian types are around to provide entertainment.


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 Anonymous
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"ianrons" wrote:
The thief was caught pretty quickly. But more importantly it's not actually John Dee's ball (which is not in the Albert Hall either), but a fake (prob. early 20thC), as Alan Thorogood has quite conclusively shown.

The Dee Shewstone I saw in 1997 had a slight crack in the center - is this the fake or real one?


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Michael Staley
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"AEternitas" wrote:
A couple of years ago when I was starting out, I kept finding references online saying that LAM was an Enochian entity that Crowley contacted through Enochian Magic. I haven't been able to find any explanation of this anywhere.

It's the first time I've heard any such suggestion, but there's no evidence for it that I'm aware of.

In my opinion it's pretty clear when reading the record of the Amalantrah Working that Lam arose in the course of that Working. Certainly there's no mention of Enochian in the surviving record, and Crowley is in my view likely to have documented any use of Enochian that did occur.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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ianrons
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"tai" wrote:
The Dee Shewstone I saw in 1997 had a slight crack in the center - is this the fake or real one?

You were probably at the British Museum. What you are describing is a "rutilation", not a crack as such. As far as I know the provenance of that item is a little vague... it was just in a tray labelled as John Dee's items. It may have been one of his scrying vessels, but there are at least a couple of reasons to think it was not the central one (his spiritual diaries record the use of at least two). The matter is the subject of ongoing research, and it would be premature to comment further.


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ianrons
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Michael,

"MichaelStaley" wrote:
In my opinion it's pretty clear when reading the record of the Amalantrah Working that Lam arose in the course of that Working. Certainly there's no mention of Enochian in the surviving record, and Crowley is in my view likely to have documented any use of Enochian that did occur.

I'd be interested to hear your view of Kenneth Grant's obviously ridiculous remarks on p.36 of Outside the Circles of Time that Dee was trying to “establish subtle intercourse with the denizens of the Meon” (i.e., "dark ones", spiders and things) and that he "achieved" a system capable of making contact with "Choronzon".


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mika
 mika
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"petarpan" wrote:
I have read lot of book about this subject but more of them are quite shallow except Benjamin Rowes “The Book Of The Seniors” and “Enochian Temples”, which are on the other hand very complicated and subjective.

Don't fool yourself. Anything you read on the subject that is not a source document, including Staley's work, will be entirely subjective.

"petarpan" wrote:
It will be of great help if you have some suggestion about books or articles or even better practical instruction.

The most effective first step of practical work you can do to get familiar with Dee's Enochian system of magick is to create your own Elemental Tablets. I used Zalewski's "Golden Dawn Enochian Magick", it was alright, had good instructions but several errors in the diagrams. These days more accurate source documents are available, uninfluenced by the GD (or anyone else), such as "The Practical Angel Magic of Dr. John Dee’s Enochian Tables" By Stephen Skinner & David Rankine.

Once you get a handle on the original system, then you'll be better able to study and form your own opinions about other people's spin-offs.


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 Anonymous
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I loosely define the "meon" as the "other world," such as a world in which spirits, angels and other sorts of aliens might reside and not necessarily "dark ones' or spiders and things (though not excluding them).
Obviously Dee sought to gain knowledge by contacting other worldly beings, in other words "to establish subtle intercourse with the denizens of the Meon." Crowley utilized the system received by Dee and Kelly in China and it resulted in his contact with Choronzon, "a system capable of making contact with "Choronzon." Obviously this aspect of Enochian work is the most relevent portion to Grant. I don't see anything obviously ridiculous about Grants statement.


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 Anonymous
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"ianrons" wrote:
"666TSAEB" wrote:
Has anyone noticed any follow up or recovery after this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article401766.ece

The thief was caught pretty quickly. But more importantly it's not actually John Dee's ball (which is not in the Albert Hall either), but a fake (prob. early 20thC), as Alan Thorogood has quite conclusively shown based on an examination of the accompanying MS. There was some discussion of this on the Enochian mailing lists back then.

"AEternitas" wrote:
I think Enochian Magick fits in perfectly with the Typhonian current. Even more so when you consider it's connections to the Necronomicon Mythos, one could consider that communion with the Enochian Angels could be seen as means of obtaining bits and pieces of the Necronomicon and it's gnosis.

I'm so glad you Typhonian types are around to provide entertainment.

I'm well aware that the Dee/Necronimcon connection is derived from fictional sources. I loosely define the Necronomicon as something akin to knowledge unobtainable through means other than magick.
Glad you were entertained.


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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"mika" wrote:
Don't fool yourself. Anything you read on the subject that is not a source document, including Staley's work, will be entirely subjective.

Apart from extremely brief outlines in a few articles, I've done no work on Enochian, nor have I claimed to have done.


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ianrons
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"AEternitas" wrote:
I'm well aware that the Dee/Necronimcon connection is derived from fictional sources.

Thanks for your reply.

Not wishing to seem brusque, I think it would be kinda good if all the non-real-life stuff like this could be covered under a different heading somehow, or at least acknowledged up-front. Maybe it could be put somewhere else, perhaps under some commonly-understood term like one of the Typhonian brethren recently put it: "FICTION"!

Or perhaps in the bin...


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 Anonymous
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I would suggest Skinner and Rankine's book on the subject, as well as Petersen's and as well Laycock's Enochian Dictionary. The Golden Dawn recension of the system of adding elemental correspondences to the squares is unique and complex and very interesting, though I do not recommend the pronunciation that they use. Liber Chanokh breaks down the basics quite well and gives a plain explanation of the ritual use of the system, again I don't recommend Crowleys version of the Calls, though they seemed to work well for him. For a more advanced and modern look at the subject I highly recommend that you check out all of the works by Benjamin Rowe, who worked exclusively with the system and was quite an admirable explorer.


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 Anonymous
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"ianrons" wrote:
"AEternitas" wrote:
I'm well aware that the Dee/Necronimcon connection is derived from fictional sources.

Thanks for your reply.

Not wishing to seem brusque, I think it would be kinda good if all the non-real-life stuff like this could be covered under a different heading somehow, or at least acknowledged up-front. Maybe it could be put somewhere else, perhaps under some commonly-understood term like one of the Typhonian brethren recently put it: "FICTION"!

Or perhaps in the bin...

In the modern history of occultism did we somewhere stop seeing the magical relevancy in myth and legend?


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ianrons
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"AEternitas" wrote:
In the modern history of occultism did we somewhere stop seeing the magical relevancy in myth and legend?

And since when did we stop realising that myth and legend are essentially fiction? Seriously, somebody needs to point this out...


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 Anonymous
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Essentially fiction, yes. But does that mean that they are without any sort of value?


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ianrons
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They have value, but as fiction! It's like the difference between something imaginary and something that actually exists. How can I explain this? I know... why don't you walk in front of a bus? Seriously, why not? I bet you don't, and that's really the end of this discussion. Non-scientists, fantasists, obscurantists...

When did religion cease to be about the truth, and become nothing more than invention?


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 Anonymous
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Are you suggesting I deserve to be hit by a bus? Or that I'm the type of moron that would walk in front of a bus, not knowing the distinction between fiction and real life, or the difference between historic fact and legend?

Something imaginary like what, Crowley's friend Aiwass? Or only imaginary like HP Lovecraft's nightmare inspired mythology?

This is a discussion about the Typhonian aspects of Enochian magic. The magical use of fiction plays a major role in Typhonian magic, in case you hadn't noticed, so I think my previous post post was perfectly relevent within the context of this thread.
Do you have anything of value that you would like to add to this thread?

I know...why don't you try to relax just a little bit? Seriously, why not? I bet you don't...


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 Anonymous
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"ianrons" wrote:
When did religion cease to be about the truth, and become nothing more than invention?

When it became a political force to control people.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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"AEternitas" wrote:
fiction plays a major role in Typhonian magic, in case you hadn't noticed

I think I really have noticed. When will you? Oh wait, you've already indicated you don't think there is an important difference between fiction and reality, or that you don't care, or prefer not to worry... but why won't you say that up-front? Is it pride?


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Los
 Los
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"ianrons" wrote:
When did religion cease to be about the truth, and become nothing more than invention?

Arguably, religion, as the word is commonly understood, has always been about invention.

I think Ian's point about the bus was that no one willingly walks in front of a bus, for the very good reason that we all recognize that it's real. That is to say, there is a reality outside of our heads -- or at least, there appears to be a consistent reality that exists apart from our thoughts, ideas, beliefs, and imaginations.

It can only be helpful to be clear about the difference between fact and fiction.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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"zardoz" wrote:
"ianrons" wrote:
When did religion cease to be about the truth, and become nothing more than invention?

When it became a political force to control people.

So because other people use falsehood you have to do so? How very noble.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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"Los" wrote:
"ianrons" wrote:
When did religion cease to be about the truth, and become nothing more than invention?

Arguably, religion, as the word is commonly understood, has always been about invention.

I think Ian's point about the bus was that no one willingly walks in front of a bus, for the very good reason that we all recognize that it's real. That is to say, there is a reality outside of our heads -- or at least, there appears to be a consistent reality that exists apart from our thoughts, ideas, beliefs, and imaginations.

It can only be helpful to be clear about the difference between fact and fiction.

I agree in the main, and certainly with the sentiment. Religion is an attempt to get at the truth, by any means. Whether or not it's successful, the intent is to get at the truth; whereas the Typhonian insanity is willing acquiescence in known falsehood. And the defences offered for it are ludicrously weak...


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 Anonymous
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"ianrons" wrote:
"AEternitas" wrote:
fiction plays a major role in Typhonian magic, in case you hadn't noticed

I think I really have noticed. When will you? Oh wait, you don't think there is an important difference between fiction and reality, or don't care, or prefer not to worry... but why won't you say that up-front? Is it pride?

I never stated that I made no distinction between perceived "reality and fiction."
In "reality" I don't think Dee ever owned a copy of the Necronomicon, or that any "real" book such as the Necronomicon "exists" in the commonly accepted manner, and I never stated otherwise. I only remarked about a legendary "Dee/Necronomicon connection," and the remark was somewhat in jest.
I think that you have some pre-conceived notions about what I think and believe, how I can think and believe in this way and how I execute these thoughts and beliefs "in real life."
It seems like anytime a thread relating to "Typhonian" magick comes up, it gets bogged down by a select number of individuals who can't simply agree to disagree and leave the rest of us alone. It seems rather unfortunate.


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 Anonymous
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"ianrons" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
"ianrons" wrote:
When did religion cease to be about the truth, and become nothing more than invention?

When it became a political force to control people.

So because other people use falsehood you have to do so? How very noble.

Thanks for communicating nothing but judgment and petty sarcasm. Except in its very rare pure form, religion is extremely territorial and has been used for at least 2 thousands years to ideologically control the unwashed masses.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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"AEternitas" wrote:
I never stated that I made no distinction between perceived "reality and fiction."

Most people don't have to, so it's become a sort of custom amongst reality-inhabiting animals not to bother with these formalities. However, in some cases it might be helpful to wear a sign saying "[insert caption here]".

"Aeternitas" wrote:
In "reality" I don't think Dee ever owned a copy of the Necronomicon, or that any "real" book such as the Necronomicon "exists" in the commonly accepted manner, and I never stated otherwise.

Which is kinda the problem.

"AEternitas" wrote:
I only remarked about a legendary "Dee/Necronomicon connection," and the remark was somewhat in jest.

Yeah, it's really very funny after so many decades of people being clever and "ironic" like our friend the_spurious_simon_iff. And yes, that is irnyo... inroy... yonri... dammit, IRONY.

"Aeternitas" wrote:
I think that you have some pre-conceived notions about what I think and believe, how I can think and believe in this way and how I execute these thoughts and beliefs "in real life."

Well I can only conceive notions about what you think and believe based upon what you fucking say...

"AEternitas" wrote:
It seems like anytime a thread relating to "Typhonian" magick comes up, it gets bogged down by a select number of individuals who can't simply agree to disagree and leave the rest of us alone. It seems rather unfortunate.

Oh dear, how sad it must be to be a poor little Typhonian, with nasty adults picking on you for talking complete fucking shite the whole time.


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mika
 mika
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"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"mika" wrote:
Don't fool yourself. Anything you read on the subject that is not a source document, including Staley's work, will be entirely subjective.

Apart from extremely brief outlines in a few articles, I've done no work on Enochian, nor have I claimed to have done.

Yet you have written the following:
"The nearest to it is an article on "The Vision and the Voice" which discusses that work in general - including some background material on Enochian, Dee & Kelley, etc. - before going on to consider elements of the Vision of the Fifth Aethyr."

Are you trying to claim that your article on "The Vision and the Voice" and your consideration of the Vision of the Fifth Aethyr has nothing to do with Enochian magick? If you have "done no work on Enochian", then how could anyone take your article on "The Vision and the Voice" seriously, as anything more than meaningless, uninformed, unacademic ramblings?


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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"zardoz" wrote:
Thanks for communicating nothing but judgment and petty sarcasm.

I haven't been sarcastic to you or anyone else in this thread, or even ironic except at one point in my recent reply to AEternitas.

"zardoz" wrote:
Except in its very rare pure form, religion is extremely territorial and has been used for at least 2 thousands years to ideologically control the unwashed masses.

Which is exactly the point I've been trying to get across to these followers of Kenneth Grant, but they prefer the fiction to the reality.


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 Anonymous
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Really now is that necessary? In this case you seem to be using the term "adult" very strangely. I understand that I'm coming from a position that you obviously disagree with and misunderstand, you also don't seem to care to try to understand and that's fine, but you are being childish and reactionary. I don't believe that I have "talked complete fucking shit."


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