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christibrany
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02/01/2019 6:45 pm  

93

So per https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/29/books/copyright-extension-literature-public-domain.html#click=https://t.co/X0ZmOfu7t8

All the works published after 1923 until 1977 in the US are losing their copyright.

How does this affect any of A.C.'s works, if any? Which ones?

In that vein, anyone have any update on the OTO's 'forthcoming' unexpurgated Confessions as well as his entire set of Diaries? 😀

Best,

Chris

93 93/93


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bgruagach
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03/01/2019 9:25 pm  

I'm not sure you've interpreted the copyright law correctly. Here's the relevant quote from the article that explains it:

"The law reset the copyright term for works published from 1923 to 1977 — lengthening it from 75 years to 95 years after publication — essentially freezing their protected status. (The law is often referred to by skeptics as the “Mickey Mouse Protection Act,” since it has kept “Steamboat Willie,” the first Disney film featuring Mickey, under copyright until 2024.)"

The old law said works were copyrighted for 75 years after publication. The new law says works are copyrighted for 95 years from publication. This is all in the news because since the law came into effect, we had a drought of no works coming into the public domain for a few years. This year marks the end of the drought as works are starting to come into the public domain again.

Crowley's works are covered by copyright for 95 years from the time of publication. Presumably anything published before 1923 is in the public domain.


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ignant666
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04/01/2019 12:06 am  

Chris is indeed over-optimistic as to what has just happened. The (c)OTO will continue to "dog-in-the manger" the US Crowley copyrights for some years to come, publishing little, and suing anyone else who does what they will not. As i understand it, (almost) all of AC's work is now in the public domain in the UK, and much of the rest of the world

What has happened is that, on 1/1/19, for the first time in 20 years, some older works (those published in 1923 and still under copyright) have entered the US public domain. On 1/1/20, works published in 1925 will be free of copyright, lather, rinse, repeat.

However, the Californians, however litigious, own much less than they like to claim. All of Crowley's post-1923 work that was originally published in the US (quite a few things) has been in the public domain for many years, since the 28 year initial copyrights expired at various points in the '50s-70s. No AC US copyrights were timely renewed by the rights-holder (the UK bankruptcy authorities) during this period.

The only Crowley copyright that is worth much money commercially is the Thoth deck, which will enter the public domain in 2039 (95 years after 1944 publication).

Grady McMurtry notoriously sold the (c)OTO's "rights" to the Thoth deck to US Games Inc. for $500 "beer money", at a time when he/the (c)OTO owned no legal rights whatever over AC's work (since they did not buy those rights from the UK bankruptcy authorities until 30+ years later).

The (c)OTO leadership's main activity for many years has been trying to shake the Thoth deck "money tree" through endless litigation trying to re-negotiate that deal. This may account for the lack of any new publications by the rights-holders for so many years, as the day is only so long, after all.


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Shiva
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04/01/2019 5:13 pm  

Ig: Grady McMurtry notoriously sold the (c)OTO’s “rights” to the Thoth deck to US Games Inc. for $500 “beer money”, at a time when he/the (c)OTO owned no legal rights whatever over AC’s work

Ah, what tangled webs we do conceive when we first decide to publish somebody else's work.


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christibrany
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07/01/2019 10:43 pm  

Thank you all for schooling me 🙂 It makes more sense now. Alas.


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Brigitte Gorez Santos
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13/01/2019 8:22 pm  

Like Chris, hoping to see the entire set of diaries published one day...


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ignant666
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13/01/2019 10:26 pm  

I think we all hope that the diaries, and even more important, all 22 volumes of the Confessions, are disgorged by the (c)OTO someday.

The Confessions were said to be in page-proofs more than ten years ago, so i would not advise anyone to hold their breath waiting.

Note that the discussion above of copyrights is about the already-published works. Crowley's many unpublished works would be subject to considerably longer terms of copyright, if the (c)OTO were ever to publish them.


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elitemachinery
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14/01/2019 6:07 am  

@ignant666

I think we all hope that the diaries, and even more important, all 22 volumes of the Confessions, are disgorged by the (c)OTO someday.

The Confessions were said to be in page-proofs more than ten years ago, so i would not advise anyone to hold their breath waiting.

It would be interesting to know more details about what papers they actually possess.

from:

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/confessions-again/#post-11159

quoting @Alastrum:

In the introduction to the first edition of the Confessions, John Symonds writes:
” This is the text of all six volumes, after some redundancies have been removed: Crowley dictated the work to the Ape of Thoth while under the influence of heroin, which made him at times a little verbose.”

By 1945, Crowley had lost the galley proofs of the third volume and the scripts of the remaining 3 volumes were scattered amongst his papers. At Symonds’ urging, Crowley collected them all together and gave them to a typist to type them all up, sending a copy to Symonds and complaining that it had cost him almost £40 to get them all typed up.

From this, it should be clear that the Confessions as published by Symonds and Grant is pretty much what Crowley intended, as he himself had had it typed up, presumably correcting where necessary. As for Symonds’ “redundancies”, the word means stuff that wasn’t necessary. I presume this to mean passages where Crowley probably repeats himself or rambles on about nothing, or stuff irrelevant to his life; anyone who has tried to have a conversation with someone stoned will know that they can go off on all sorts of tangents, and repeat themselves several times (go on, admit it, we’ve all done it:-))

Personally, the mention of 130 pages of “missing” stuff doesn’t quite ring true to me; if there really was 130 pages of NEW, never before published Crowley material out there, it would have been published by now. Absolutely nothing of what these “extra” pages supposedly contain has ever been leaked, and I strongly suspect that if they ever surface, there will be nothing there that we don’t know already. I very much doubt there are amazing revelations that have been deliberately hidden from us, or new information that enables us to look at AC in a new light. Very probably, it was left out for a perfectly simple good reason; it was rubbish.

And finally, on old paper sizes, and an old fashioned typewriter, printing double-spaced as a professional typist would do, 130 pages wouldn’t contain a lot of text; if it had made it into the Confessions, printed single-spaced with a smaller font size than typescript, it would probably only amount to about 15 extra pages, if that.


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ignant666
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14/01/2019 2:07 pm  

Welcome back, elitemachinery.

Not sure where i hallucinated up 22 volumes from. The first two volumes come to 284 pp. and 308 pp respectively; there were to be four more, presumably of about the same length.

296 (averaging the lengths of the two published volumes) * 6 = 1776 pages, or 845 pages more than appear in the Symonds Confessions.

Quite a lot of "redundancies" Symonds trimmed away, and considerably more than 15 pages languishing in the vaults of the Californians!

See https://www.biblio.com/book/spirit-solitude-crowley-aleister/d/100425260

Whilst the single volume edition includes much of the text of the first two volumes (and of course that of the latter four) it is nonetheless an abridgement. These [two] original [published] volumes include a considerable amount of text, and many photographs - particularly pertaining to Crowley's travels and mountaineering exploits - that were not reproduced in the later single volume.


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Shiva
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14/01/2019 3:06 pm  

The so-called Confessions was originally published in 6 volumes titled The Spirit of Solitude, which I read in toto in 1968.

I was pleased to see Confessions published, and I read it all. I could find no significant details that were omitted. In fact, I noted no difference at all. Certain passages from Spirit (that were left out of Confessions) have been presented to me as being "significant," yet I remain unimpressed.

Chasing after minutiae hidden in the cull is not worth the effort, in my opinion, but unpublished diaries /records are a different matter.

The publishing agenda of the (c)holder, and its follow-through, remain as mysterious as its confusing, filled with opposites and enigmas, lineage.


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ignant666
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14/01/2019 3:44 pm  

I didn't know all six volumes had been published. I also can't find any copies of anything except the two Mandrake Press volumes on abebooks or biblio.

Surely there must be something of interest in so many pages?

It is indeed baffling trying to figure out the "publishing agenda of the (c)holder", especially since we only get a new data-point around once a decade.


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Jamie J Barter
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14/01/2019 9:50 pm  

@ignant :

It is indeed baffling trying to figure out the “publishing agenda of the (c)holder”, especially since we only get a new data-point around once a decade.
It is relatively simple ignant, and I think you encapsulated it perfectly yourself in another thread earlier when you observed it being all down to a "dog in the manger" attitude - one in which Bill Breeze, aka Hymenaeus Beta, has found he has finally bitten off more than he can chew.

In my view, it is almost completely down to his desire for all (c)OTO productions to be if possible like "his" celebrated big blue breezeblock Book Four, Astrology, "The Equinox" etc., with maximum kudos accruing to him as compiler, editor, designer, annotator, writer of learned prolegomenons and the like, chief cook & bottle washer, you name it...

Unfortunately it seems that this last task of the Collected Diaries in particular, along with the complete Confessions, is for whatever reason, finally beyond his powers and he has become lost in a labyrinthine rabbit-hole of his own excavation. Though rather than share the burden with other tried and tested capable associates in or out the Order but amongst whom he would be (albeit the foremost) only one of many or several, he would prefer the credit to all go to him - even at the expense of further unpublished Crowleyana never appearing at all, or at least until all remaining copyrights finally expire in another twenty years time after 2039.

Out of sheer embarrassment if nothing else, however, he in the name of the (c)OTO has at least and at last ceased to send out alluring pronouncements of what has continually over the last two or three decades proved to be a false dawn. Meanwhile, it is our (everyone else's) loss, but the (c)OTO (=BB/HB), far from propagating the writings of A.C. and the law of Thelema as is supposed to be its (his) primary responsibility and duty, doesn't seem to care one single solitary flying fig.

Does anyone disagree or have some other possible explanation?

Norma N Joy Conquest


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Shiva
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15/01/2019 12:29 am  

Ig: ... we only get a new data-point around once a decade.

That's because you're not a member. The (c)holder is a serious and SECRET Order. Now, if one was to join, pay dues, rise in the grades (that's like rising on the planes), pay initiation fees, curry favor, keep dues current, and be looked upon with benevolence ... then maybe more would be known. Too bad one can't talk about it under seriously severe penalties involving daggers and dogs.


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Tiger
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15/01/2019 2:56 am  

Defanging the Snake
https://youtu.be/O_UYOqCsr7E

HOW TO READ its about awareness see the shift
https://youtu.be/zUWSGVI3TWU


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Shiva
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15/01/2019 4:19 pm  

Ig: I didn’t know all six volumes had been published.

The first two were bound as books, more or less. Obviously, these had been "published."

The other four were more like a typescript or screenplay. They were intact and bound, but probably not for public sales. So it's likely they were not "published."


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ignant666
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15/01/2019 4:37 pm  

Aha; i figured it might be something like that, with your access to so many manuscripts etc at that time.

I continue to hold out hope that the extra 800 or so pages have to contain interesting things despite your recollection.

However, as i am 60, i have little hope i will live long enough to find out, as i figure i am good for only 20 more years or so. Perhaps my grandchildren will be able to read it someday.


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Jamie J Barter
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15/01/2019 9:03 pm  

@Shiv :

"Ig: … we only get a new data-point around once a decade."
--- That’s because you’re not a member. The (c)holder is a serious and SECRET Order. Now, one was to join, pay dues, rise in the grades (that’s like rising on the planes), pay initiation fees, curry favor, keep dues current, and be looked upon with benevolence … then maybe more would be known. Too bad one can’t talk about it under seriously severe penalties involving daggers and dogs.

I was a member, for about ten years from approx 1984-94. I found the (c)holder to be not particularly serious, and definitely not so SECRET. I originally joined as an Associate member before it got going again in Europe and was one of the founding 7 members who attended the first meeting, and was initiated as a Minerval. I paid both initiation and regular dues promptly, rose throughout the grades to the pinnacle of the man of Earth series as a IVth degree K.E.W., and was looked upon if not exactly with "benevolence" at least as capable & in good standing, having been both National Secretary and the first 'Master' of the original London 'Bennu Bird' Camp later Oasis, not quite Lodge. Had I stayed on and toed the line, by now I might have been (or at least have been in the running for) Xth degree - however towards the end, when myself and my secretary Gerald Suster found out more info about the way things were, we had differences of opinion which later led to our resignation. But that's another story... however I think therefore I know of what I speak, and as I don't regard it as being in any way the 'real' O.T.O. (unfortunately), severe penalties involving daggers & dogs & whatnot don't apply.

The main point being though, is that members, even 'masters' of geographical local bodies, don't get any more significant information shout-outs or 'data-points' about publications than anyone else.

@Oroboros :

Does anyone disagree or have some other possible explanation?
Good - I thought not.

N Joy


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Shiva
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15/01/2019 11:58 pm  

Ig: I continue to hold out hope that the extra 800 or so pages have to contain interesting things despite your recollection.

Oh, I'm sue there is plenty of interesting material. Crowley anecdotes and short tales can be the funniest, most ironic, most bizarre stories incarnate.

My extremely short and negative review was based on my practicality filter. That is, I believe the essential instructions for the path were properly set out in The (original) Equinox. There is very little in Confessions (original or censored) that adds ammo to the arsenal , in a practical how-to-do-it manner. So I'm not losing sleep or mental regret energy over the censorship.

However, Confessions (in its present censored state) is the first book I have recommended to people who want "beginner's" input.

If I were asked to Vote today, yes, I would vote foe the nilitary forces compel the (c)holder to publish The Spirit of Solitude, well within your self-alloted 20 annums, with the admonition to speed things up by omitting any editorial observances.

Under severe penalties for non-compliance.

Please send me the address of the polling place and date of the voting.


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Tiger
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16/01/2019 2:59 am  

admonition to speed things up by omitting any editorial observances.
aye choronzon don’t sabotage the modus operandi !

Here’s a chance to yak all you want and make money !
that should get the bottle washer outa da sticky wicket .


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ptoner
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16/01/2019 1:31 pm  

I used to make a point of asking members of OTO every year since their initial announcement.
https://www.oto.org/news0608.html

and follow up.
https://www.oto.org/news0413.html

Now have given up on ever seeing them, yet I did notice on FB, that Richard Kaczynski mentioned multiple projects that he was working on recently.


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elitemachinery
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18/01/2019 3:25 pm  

@ignant666 said:

Welcome back, elitemachinery.

Thanks Travis! I'm always lurking here and there.

I'm wondering if we won't see new volumes of Crowley classics now as they become public domain. It would seem attractive to a book seller to add an additional forward or introduction and a few new graphics and/or commentary and then claim copyright on the new edition for the next 200 years. As long as the books are well made and the commentary equal to the subject matter I don't see a problem. AC's work could reach a lot of new folks at a potentially reasonable price as publisher not having to pay royalties to the estate/copyright holder.


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Jamie J Barter
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18/01/2019 11:29 pm  

@elitemachinery :

Hello again Michael - or is it Sean? - you old lurker there, you! (& ditto to paul toner)

I’m wondering if we won’t see new volumes of Crowley classics now as they become public domain. ... As long as the books are well made and the commentary equal to the subject matter I don’t see a problem.

Neither do I. And at least something decent would be in print, which is more than it is now when there's less around than at any time I can remember since the 'seventies. I would rather see the original Confessions back on the shelves minus the extra material & editorial pontifications for now; the former at least could always be added in a supplemental volume at a later date with page numbers for reference where they would need to be inserted. A minor inconvenience perhaps, but not anywhere near as much as nothing being made available at all whilst we wait another 10 or 20 years for BB/HB to puzzle out how to tie it all in with the Complete Diaries etc (if that isn't vanity publishing I don't know what is.)

As for the books being well made, well if they aren't there won't be much demand for them. The bar has been set by (c)oto already, but there's also no reason why it can't be surpassed by e.g. productions along the lines of Martin Starr (Brutus in the backstabbing stakes to Motta's Julius Caesar - or (stroking metaphorical beard) was that James Wasserman?)'s excellent Teitan Press. Maybe even the superlative Starfire once it's finished showing the (c)oto how it's done with keeping all of Kenneth Grant's stuff in print and publishing other unseen material might move on to doing A.C. next as well, in a similar manner to the venerated old 93 Publishing.

Publish and <not> be damned!
N <> Joy


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christibrany
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31/05/2019 10:04 pm  

Ok so randomly I found this new edition of the Equinox being printed and for sale. Is this out of copyright now?

For a second I was surprised the OTO had printed something new.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1644673584


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Michael Staley
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31/05/2019 11:37 pm  

"Ok so randomly I found this new edition of the Equinox being printed and for sale. Is this out of copyright now? "

Yes. It was published by Crowley, and thus went out of copyright throughout Europe at the beginning of 2018.

It may well have gone out of copyright in the USA a good deal earlier, due to Public Domain.


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Alan_OBrien
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04/09/2019 2:30 pm  

With regards to Crowley's unpublished works and copyright it is worth reading about the strange case of poet John Clare (13 July 1793 – 20 May 1864). Payment for using his work goes to an American Professor.

Guardian article about John Clare

Under the 1842 Copyright Act which was in force at Clare's death, in the case of published works copyright endured for 42 years after publication or seven years after the author's death, whichever was later. Thus three of Clare's published volumes came out of copyright in 1871, and the fourth in 1877. For unpublished works, however, copyright was a very different matter. Under common law, an author, or after his death his personal representative, retained perpetual control over his work as long as it remained unpublished. This is particularly important in Clare's case, since his four published volumes contained only about 10% of his total output - some 300 poems out of more than 3,000 he wrote in his lifetime.

You can see that if the unpublished MSS had been willed to the OTO, then the same situation would occur.

It's an interesting article, anyway.


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ptoner
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11/11/2019 3:59 pm  
Posted by: @ptoner

I used to make a point of asking members of OTO every year since their initial announcement.
https://www.oto.org/news0608.html

and follow up.
https://www.oto.org/news0413.html

Now have given up on ever seeing them, yet I did notice on FB, that Richard Kaczynski mentioned multiple projects that he was working on recently.

Nearly another year with zero publications, for an organisation that wants Thelema promulgated, not publishing the Holy Books etc is not excusable. 


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Alan_OBrien
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12/11/2019 11:10 am  

Here's a funny thing... In English-speaking Freemasonry it seems that the only books appearing that are any good are by the team of Arturo de Hoyos and S Brent Morris. Books by anyone else are as rare as rocking horse wee-wee.

But when I go to France they have dozens of new books. They also have magazines-a-go-go on all sorts of esoteric subjects.

Perhaps Richard Kaczynski is the only guy prepared to do any editorial work at the OTO, like that "80%/20%" rule.


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christibrany
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12/11/2019 4:23 pm  

😀

'as rare as rocking horse wee-wee.'

 

That should be copyrighted. 


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ignant666
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12/11/2019 4:31 pm  

Usually the expression is "rare as rocking horse shit", but i suppose making "wee-wee" is more common than shitting among mammals and so maybe among wooden animals as well, so perhaps Alan O'Brien is expressing a subtle gradation of rarity?

It is worth remembering that the current OHO was selected because he was said to be "good at editing Crowley books". While the Blue Brick attests to there being some truth to this, this ability appears to be, um, in abeyance, or perhaps a Period Of Silence?

At least no one can accuse them of profiteering off those AC copyrights, other than the Thoth money.


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