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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5034
07/08/2020 2:56 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

definition of Gothic has expanded to such a degree as to become effectively meaning ...

Yin.

One half of the Universe (the dark side, naturally).

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I had thought of taking you down a peg, dom, for your impertinent presumption in without any foundation whatsoever calling me a "former troll"

How much (legth, weight, age, etc) is a "peg?"

Oh, he is only referring to how you once were, but got better, then (recently, after a blackout) your "vibe" changed. Oh shit! You did get "walked-in" upon, or possessed, by some recent curses?

Nah! You're okay now. It's only one more rung of the ladder until we all trans-ascend the bitter world of personalities, and dwell in the Garden of Nuit, together, forever.

I'm not sure I'm in agreement with that archetype today. Check back tomorrow. Things are moving so fast now, the Angels are opening more Seals. Anything could change in just a day.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

So there's gratitude for you!

No good deed goes unpunished shall be a sub-clause under the Law. Simply a matter of "collateral damage," or something else in the "It ain't fair" category.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I've decided to show magnanimity

This is the first placement of one foot (either side) on the next rung of the ladder called Immortality.

 


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dom
 dom
(@dom)
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07/08/2020 8:30 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

 

I had thought of taking you down a peg, dom, for your impertinent presumption in without any foundation whatsoever calling me a "former troll", when that was what everyone was labelling you when you first came onto LAShTAL ("the worst one ever" as I recall by somebody) - and I was the only one at that time who bothered to come to your defence and say you were 'only' an "agitator" (The comical reference for those who might not remember/be aware was to the landlord in the film The Graduate. Also rather more like myself on occasion in fact, come to think of it...)

So there's gratitude for you!  However, as you actually made me chuckle out loud I've decided to show magnanimity towards you instead.

You may proceed,

N Joy

Read Shiva's reply to you..carefully... you "sensitive shoot"... a term you used for me in one of your recent niggling posts.   Kettle?  Black?   

 

Maybe I read your post (below) wrong, apologies if I did, it seemed disruptive when I first read it.  To answer your question;

So at a stretch that would be everything of the shadowy 'dark side' then - excluding anything more precise and all which might be regarded as being more 'sunshiney' instead: light, carefree, easygoing, pleasant?

*thinks* That's a pretty broad (golfing?) umbrella...

 

Yes it is isn't it?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
(@tiger)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 1581
07/08/2020 12:33 pm  

The other week outside the umbrella,
at the points you can’t recall;
you were lost.
Extra natural shadows
unsealed the misplaced deposition.

Specters
causing metaphysical states of being
to assume form in the seats of consciousness.

suspended the titanic bond;
the habit of running around,
the need of doing,
the hankering of procreation,
the commonplace sensibility.

If you recollect;
the self may no longer be the self;
something other
may have entranced
the accustomed state.


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dom
 dom
(@dom)
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15/08/2020 11:22 pm  

I forgot to mention that Bram Stoker was a member of the G..D and most likely met Crolwey. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Alan_OBrien
(@alan_obrien)
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Posts: 226
19/08/2020 12:51 pm  
Posted by: @dom

I forgot to mention that Bram Stoker was a member of the G..D and most likely met Crolwey. 

Is Bram Stoker's membership 100% definite?


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3139
19/08/2020 1:39 pm  

No, not at all. Wikipedia cites three sources saying he wasn't a member.


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dom
 dom
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19/08/2020 3:42 pm  
Posted by: @alan_obrien
Posted by: @dom

I forgot to mention that Bram Stoker was a member of the G..D and most likely met Crolwey. 

Is Bram Stoker's membership 100% definite?

Yes according to The Crowley Scrapbook published circa 1988, sorry no page or  publisher details.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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belmurru
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Posts: 1025
19/08/2020 4:35 pm  
Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @alan_obrien
Posted by: @dom

I forgot to mention that Bram Stoker was a member of the G..D and most likely met Crolwey. 

Is Bram Stoker's membership 100% definite?

Yes according to The Crowley Scrapbook published circa 1988, sorry no page or  publisher details.

Ellic Howe, The Magicians of the Golden Dawn (1972, p. 285) says that Stoker's membership is apocryphal:

There are allusions to the G.D. in Louis Pauwels's and Jacques Bergier's sensational best-seller Le Matin des Magiciens, 1960. As might be expected they had no difficulty in adding to the G.D. mythology, e.g. by stating that Bram Stoker, the author of Dracula, and Sax Rohmer, the creator of the 'Dr Fu Manchu' mystery stories which were popular during the 1920s, were both in the Order.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2611
19/08/2020 7:07 pm  

There is not really any evidence for Sax or Bram's membership: http://shadowplayzine.com/Articles/hermetic_horrors.ht m"> https://web.archive.org/web/20091109074626/http://shadowplayzine.com/Articles/hermetic_horrors.htm

Plenty of evidence for Arthur Machen's though. 

 


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dom
 dom
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20/08/2020 12:05 am  

Ok I have sinned and reproduced from a dodgy source namely The Aleister Crowley Scrapbook by Sandy Robertson, I have read it but I don't recall the published edition.  I do remember Stoker being referenced though and complete with a photo of him.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3139
20/08/2020 12:56 am  

Perhaps @sandyboy will honor us with his presence and clear things up.


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sandyboy
(@sandyboy)
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Posts: 109
20/08/2020 5:45 am  

@dom

My Crowley Scrapbook does NOT say Stoker was a GD member, so it's your memory that's dodgy, not the source.

I said "no real evidence exists" for Stoker's membership and "In studying Stoker's career it's hard to see where he could have found the time for occult activities between full-time work at Irving's Lyceum and writing his many books".


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dom
 dom
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20/08/2020 8:00 am  
Posted by: @sandyboy

@dom

My Crowley Scrapbook does NOT say Stoker was a GD member, so it's your memory that's dodgy, not the source.

I said "no real evidence exists" for Stoker's membership and "In studying Stoker's career it's hard to see where he could have found the time for occult activities between full-time work at Irving's Lyceum and writing his many books".

Ok it is my memory that seems dodgy, apologies for that, if I'm not mistaken  I do recall there was a photo of Stoker though? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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belmurru
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20/08/2020 8:59 am  

Pauwels and Bergier invented Stoker's membership in the GD, in 1960, as per Ellic Howe quoted above. There is no need to debate the question. It is just a made up thing. 

See also William Hughes, Beyond Dracula: Bram Stoker's Fiction and Its Cultural Context, (2000) p. 187 note 65 - 

The association between Stoker and the Golden Dawn appears to stem from a highly questionable list of literary and celebrity members of the Order first published in Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier, Le Matin des Magiciens (Pais: Gallimard, 1960) p. 270.

I don't have Pauwels and Bergier on hand, or I'd quote the page to show why it is "highly questionable."


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belmurru
(@belmurru)
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20/08/2020 9:47 am  

This may be the best summary of the situation:

 

“Some Victorians are consistently rumored to have been members of the Golden Dawn, with some reason, including Bram Stoker, but no evidence exists that they were ever members (albeit in a situation in which evidence is notoriously hard to come by). The evidence around Bram Stoker's possible membership in the Golden Dawn is particularly vexed. According to [Ellic] Howe, the rumor about Stoker's being a member comes from Pauwels and Bergier's 1960 'Le Matin des Magiciens,' which is non-fiction but quite “speculative” ([Howe]1972, 285). However, Stoker biographies repeat the claim (e.g. Farson 1975, 207), and as recently as 2001 the substantial scholar of esotericism, Antoine Faivre, claimed that Stoker belonged to the Golden Dawn (Caron et al. 2001, 143), a claim which he told Ithell Colquhoun was based on information “given to him by an Englishman who wished to remain anonymous” (144). If he belonged, it seems most likely that Stoker would have belonged to the Amen-Ra temple in Edinburgh, where Brodie-Innes was Imperator, because the membership rolls for the London Isis-Urania Temple, which would have been the other logical possibility, have survived, and his name is not on the Isis-Urania lists. The “temple properties,” including, presumably, the membership lists, of Amen-Ra were destroyed after the Horos scandal by William Peek, a leader in the Amen-Ra Temple and City Astronomer of Edinburgh (Gilbert 1986, 38). We have evidence that Stoker knew John William Brodie-Innes, an important leader in the Golden Dawn, his wife, Frances Brodie-Innes, and Pamela Colman Smith. He is also said to have known the W. E. Carnagie-Dicksons. In fact, the Brodie-Inneses were members of both the Amen-Ra Temple in Edinburgh, where the Carnagie Dicksons were members, as well as the Isis-Urania Temple in London, where Smith was a member (Küntz 1996, 180). For thinking about the influence of the Golden Dawn theologies on Stoker, possibly more important than whether or not he was a member might be the relationships he had with individuals within the order.”

 

Sharon E. Cogdill, “For Isis and England: The Golden Dawn as a Social Network,” in Alisa Clapp-Intyre, Julie Melnyk, eds., “Perplext in Faith”: Essays on Victorian Beliefs and Doubts (Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2015), p. 213.

https://books.google.fr/books?id=6KDzBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA213&lpg=PA213&dq=%22pauwels%22+%22bergier%22+%22matin+des+magiciens%22+%22bram+stoker%22&source=bl&ots=B2RH2etCWI&sig=ACfU3U2xFF0QqzsPFPa9lR8uvpugsRjI3g&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjTjtjbqqnrAhWBxIUKHVWlCoc4ChDoATABegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=%22pauwels%22%20%22bergier%22%20%22matin%20des%20magiciens%22%20%22bram%20stoker%22&f=false

Cogdill also cites this blog post "Unknown Golden Dawn Members: Bram Stoker?", from 2008, which contains a lot of pertinent discussion in the responses - 

http://mishkan-ha-echad.blogspot.com/2008/08/unknown-golden-dawn-members-bram-stoker.html


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sandyboy
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20/08/2020 11:53 am  

@dom

Yes, there was a photo of him. There's a section with pics of GD members and alleged members, and they are discussed. 


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dom
 dom
(@dom)
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20/08/2020 12:34 pm  
Posted by: @sandyboy

@dom

Yes, there was a photo of him. There's a section with pics of GD members and alleged members, and they are discussed. 

Yes, it's a great book, good selection of poems.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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sandyboy
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20/08/2020 2:45 pm  

@dom

I can see lots of faults with it over 30 years on, but people still tell me how it turned them on to AC which is nice to hear.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5034
20/08/2020 5:45 pm  
Posted by: @belmurru

It is just a made up thing. 

But see how easily the make-up and the fake-news are inserted into what many folks consider accurate historical memory.

 


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apuleius
(@apuleius)
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20/08/2020 10:27 pm  

@belmurru But is official membership so important in such cases, really? As the final remarks of that summary imply, being friend of relevant members could be enough to consider a most than probable influence of the GD over Stoker and his work, considering his interest in the occult.


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