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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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11/10/2011 10:28 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I write this with wisdom or folly.
I have never been able to find anything regarding what I'm about to share.
Nowhere, unless my eyes are blind and I've been led astray, is there any documentation by either Crowley or anyone writing about his work for the following:

"...but one cometh after him, whence I say not, who shall discover the Key of it all. Then this line drawn is a key: then this circle squared in its failure is a key also. And Abrahadabra. It shall be his child & that strangely."

The line and circle drawn form the sigil for SORATH, which is Hebrew for "Beast", spelled SVRT (Samekh, Vau, Resh, Tau). It is the name of the Spirit of the Sun, and equals 666 in Gematria. It is "...thy name, foursquare, mystic, wonderful, the number of the man..."
This sigil is formed on the Kamea or Magic Square of the Sun.

Since this discovery years ago, I've become aware of several other fascinating things. There is much more to all this, which I'd love to share, but only if the above is what it is.

I humbly ask for your thoughts on these matters....which I have kept silent for quite some time. If the majority of those who respond would be interested in hearing more, then I will post my work in the near future.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Derek Crowley.

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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08/05/2012 4:55 am  

93 DCCXXIX,

  It has been noted that Aleister Crowley was attempting to bring forth a Moon Child,  the result was not a child of his own gendering by the Ritual in the flesh, but a Student of his had, according to the confessions, crossed the AByss and that without gudidance at the time from his Neophyte.  The curious aspect brought out by Liber Vel LEGIS Chapter III: verse 47; is this:  It shall be his child & that strangely.  is believed by some to refer to the Babe of the Abyss that was a Student instead of Progeny of his own loins, and of course since we are not to give personal interpretation to Liber ALl, you may choose to check in "The Law Is For All"  a commentaryfor such..  Thusly the Student who had apparently crossed the Abyss to become a Babe of the Abyss was in a lower degree than common for that Adeptitude.  The Circle Squared is how the Orders consider reaching degrees within a given Degree number according to the Sephirah of the Kabbalah and the Squaring or actual Degree attainment, such as 9th Sephirah 2nd Squared. which would place one as a Second Degree. or the Circle Squared.


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pad631
(@pad631)
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Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 51
08/05/2012 5:13 am  

DCCXXIX

I am interested in that. Since there are many interpretations .
It seems everyone should find his own interpretation, or something like that.
I assume that each new work is welcome indeed.

Other thing about Moon Child as far as I know that  was a novel by Crowley.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
08/05/2012 11:22 am  

Greetings Pad631,

  In the book "The confessions of Aleister Crowley an Autohagiography by John Symonds and Kenneth Grant." on Pg. 801 pargraph 3:  "Having made this decision my next task was to cause my word to become flesh."  Paragraph 4: (I must digress to explain that every cause must produce its proper effect; so that, in this case, the son who I willed to beget came to birth on a plane other than the material.)  "I must have been very blind indeed not to recognize my true situation, if for no other reason than the following.  The celebration of the Autumnal Equinox coincided with an operation with the object above stated.  It was the last of this series of operations, though I had no reason whatever for stopping, and only discovered the fact, much to my surprise, long after.  Now, the word of this equinox was 'Nebulae',  which evidently points to the conditions which result in the birth of a star.  What I had really done was therefore to beget a Magickal Son.  So, precisely nine months afterwards, that is, at the Summer Solstice of 1916, Frater O.I.V. (the motto of C. Stanfeld Jones as a probationer) entirely without my knowledge became a Babe of the Abyss."  Paragraph 5:  "I failed completely to understand the telegrams in which he announced the fact.  His action ws unprecedented in the whole history of Magick.  It was utterly beyond my imagination to conceive of such an occurance.  He, on the other hand , while ignorant of my operation in the Autumn, understood perfectly at the time what he was doing; that he was being born as "The Child" predicted in "The Book of the Law."

93 93/93
Helel


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William Thirteen
(@williamthirteen)
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08/05/2012 12:52 pm  

of course, things soon got a little off track...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stansfeld_Jones


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3838
08/05/2012 3:22 pm  

A sketchy resume on Wikipedia, to say the least. No mention, for instance, of Achad's inauguration of the Ma-Ion in 1948, or the fact that he continued to correspond with Crowley as late as 1936.

Achad may or may not have been the "one" who "cometh after" as referred to in The Book of the Law. Certainly both Achad and Crowley thought at the time that he was. Achad continued to think so after Crowley's death, the long-standing breach between the two men notwithstanding. And that the two men eventually fell out surely does not of itself preclude Achad indeed being the "one", "his child & that strangely".

So the jury's still out on that one. May well remain so until the end of time; yea, until the end of time.


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christibrany
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10/05/2012 12:54 am  

Probably known to all here, but I found out a lot about Frater Achad, more than I ever read in any other source, from Martin Starr's "The Unknown God: WT Smith and the Thelemites."  Because Jones was viewed by Smith as his guru for many years and there are many good details of his life in that book. 🙂


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alysa
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10/05/2012 1:31 am  

I wholeheartedly agree, christibrany, Martin's P. Starr's book : "The Unknown God W.T. Smith and the Thelemites", certainly is more than a recommendation, I also did not known much about Charles Stansfeld Jones before I read that book, but thanks to it, I know a lot more, there are also interesting pictures in, both W.T. Smith and Charles Stansfeld Jones looked like pretty handsome men! I haven't looked at other resources though.


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William Thirteen
(@williamthirteen)
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10/05/2012 7:13 am  

good to know, I'm hoping that a new edition will be released as the original is going for prohibitive prices on the secondary market. 


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
11/05/2012 4:52 am  

Greetings to All,

I'd like to clarify what I meant in my original post.  The quote from Liber AL is not what "I have never been able to find anything regarding", nor do I discredit Frater Achad as being the "one" who discovered the key of 31.  What I have NOT been able to find anything about is the sigil for the spirit of the sun drawn on the grid page of the original manuscript.  Please see for yourself!  Under images, look up 'sun sigil' or 'sigil for sorath', etc. in any search engine, or in any book that you have that contains the magic squares (kameas) of the planets and compare it with the circle and line drawn on the grid page of Liber XXXI.  It seems strange that Crowley did not ever notice it, or at least did not comment on it.
The word SORATH (SVRT) is the fourfold secret name of Horus.  He is the Spirit of the Sun or the Invisible Sun or the Black Sun or The Solar Eclipse (Sun/Father + Moon/Mother = The Black Sun/Child).  In other words, Sorath is Baphomet, the magical child.  This secret name is "the blasphemy against all gods of men" as it destroys them all, for the Black Sun (Hidden God, Invisible or Secret Eye) is the Third Eye or Pineal Gland...which I will explain more later.
I understand the risk of being shunned as a centre of pestilence by writing this, yet I wonder how the awaited child could ever present anything regarding the mysteries of the book without sharing his perspective of its contents.  How many of you destroyed your copy of the book after the first reading??  As I said before, I write this with Wisdom or Folly.
I became interested in Crowley's work when I was 20 years old, (presently I am 31).  Obviously for one thing, we had the same last name.  But that was merely the beginning of the ties between Aleister Crowley, his work, and myself.  I leave it up to you as to whether these 'ties' are coincidence or not.  I cannot prove to you the "coincidences" that led me to these things, but I couldn't make this up if I tried....
My name is Derek John Crowley.  I was born July 29th 1980.  In the Western Variation of Numerology for the English Alphabet known as the Pythagorean method, the letters are substituted for numbers in the following manner:
1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9
A  B  C  D  E  F  G  H  I
J    K  L  M  N  O  P  Q  R                K=11
S  T  U  V  W  X  Y  Z                    V=22

Three numbers are obtained.  One for the subject's Alias or First Name.  One for the Name at Birth.  And One for the Date of Birth.
The numbers for each are reduced to a primary number between 1-9 by adding the sums of each digit.
My three numbers are:
D  E  R  E  K
4+5+9+5+11  =34 (3+4) =7
D  E  R  E  K    J  O  H  N    C  R  O  W  L  E  Y
4+5+ 9 +5+11+1+6 +8 +5  + 3+9+ 6+ 5 +3+5 +7 =92 (9+2)=11 (1+1) =2
JULY 29 1980
7+2+9+1+9+8+0=36 (3+6) =9

Therefore, my numbers are 7, 2 & 9.  The numbers of my birthdate.  If that wasn't strange enough, I discovered that there are only 729 possible combinations of these 3 numbers between 1-9.  So I started searching for things relating to the number 729.  One of them was something called the Kamea (Hebrew for magic square) of Baphomet.  It involves two of Crowley's works.  The first is Liber DCCXXIX, The Amalantrah working.  Crowley asks the Wizard 'Amalantrah' how to spell his chosen name in the O.T.O. "Baphomet" as a test question to prove the Wizard's claims of superior knowledge.  (See Confessions, ch. 85)  The Wizard's spelling was equal to 729.  The second is Liber Trigrammaton vel XVII.  This book expands the Trigrams of the I Ching to include the Tao, represented by a dot.  It adds 19 new Trigrams to the existing 8 to total 27.  These Trigrams are coupled with one another as in the I Ching to form 729 Hexagrams, (instead of only 64).  This 27x27 table is known as the Kamea of Baphomet.  Along with the first chapter of Liber XXXI, Liber Trigrammaton is the only other Holy Book of Thelema to not have numbered passages.  Together, the 66 from Liber XXXI and the 27 from Liber XVII =93.
I struggled for years to come up with a way to flawlessly apply the 729 numerology combinations to the Kamea and finally did so by simplifying them to the first digit of each combination.  I recognized this pattern of numbers as the Kamea of Saturn.  I also found that this is the magic square that the I Ching's Trigrams originate from.  It is called the "Lo Shu" pattern.  I later realized that I could apply this pattern to every digit in the Pythagorean combinations, thus completing what years before I simply thought might be possible.
A few years ago, I found another magic square!!!  A 27x27 magic square of the Sun.  (You can search for it this way online).  It can be found in W.S. Andrews' 'Magic Squares and Cubes' and also in David Fideler's 'Jesus Christ, Sun of God'.  I HIGHLY recommend the latter for those interested.  This square is covered in a "checkerboard" of days and nights of a solar year.  The numbers 1-729 are arranged in the 'Lo Shu' pattern, which corresponds perfectly with the application of Pythagorean Numerology. (The first number is 1 on this square, mine is 111. The middle is 365, mine is 555.  The Last is 729, mine is 999.  Here I should point out that it's not a far stretch to see '93' as '9 cubed', or 9x9x9 which equals 729.  All of these 27x27 squares mentioned may also be 'cubed'.  As Fideler points out, this creates a surface grid of 486 squares or cells.  2/3=.666 or 486/729=666, a perfect fifth, 'Sol' or 'G' in musical harmonics or solmization.  This cube I believe is intimately connected with "Metatron's Cube", which is the two dimensional representation of a three dimensional star tetrahedron, the shape of the Merkabah, God's Throne or Chariot whereby we astrally travel. -"Every man and every woman is a star". Metatron's Cube is the figure generated by linking the centres of 13 circles in the form of a Hexagram found on the Flower of Life, where the Tree of Life comes from.  Three of the five Platonic solids are shown in the figure, the other two are created by adding a few short lines.  The number 729 apparently was important to Pythagoreans, including Plato, who alludes to it in his dialogues, the Republic and Timaeus.  729 is also the name Jesus gave to Peter as the cornerstone of the church, Cephas, which means a rock or stone and in Greek equals 729. -See Ch.85 of Confessions, and David Fideler).  I believe this Calendar of days and nights corresponds as well to The Solar, Lunar and Saturnian returns in Western Astrology.  And the Numerology letter to number method appears compatible with the Hebrew, Greek and Arabic Alphabets. (-See Henry Cornelius Agrippa's 'Three Books of Occult Philosophy'). 
This 27x27 magic square is called the Omphalos or Philosopher's Stone and thus symbolizes the centre of the world/universe.  As we can only be aware of our own consciousness, the universe tends to be a reality based on our conscious (Solipsism) and subconscious (Lunacy) minds. The doorway between the two is the Third Eye or Pineal Gland, so-called because it resembles a pinecone.  This Eye is represented all around the world as a dome or an egg or an obelisk or a pyramid or a mound or a stone or a rock or an omphalos or a pinecone such as within the Vatican courtyard and is often accompanied by snakes and/or birds and covered with a grid or net-like pattern.  Like the Sun is the centre of our solar system, the Pineal Gland is located in the centre of our brains and is lined with a retinal structure consisting of rods like our eyes have for peripheral and night vision. 
It is the Invisible or Black Sun (Soul/Sol) whereby we create our individual realities.  Thus, on a conscious level we are a microcosm of the universe and yet we all connect with the macrocosmic subconscious or collective unity.  Since we can produce a 3-digit numerology combination for every one of us, (each differing in characteristics), I believe there are only 729 possible finite configurations (individual conscious perspectives) of the infinite Universe (collective subconscious perspective).  For we must limit the infinite to something definite in order to understand it with our rational minds, as in the case of the Flower and Tree of Life; the pattern continues infinitely in every direction but we MUST draw the line somewhere for comprehension.  Therefore, each of the 729 cells on this table represents one microcosmic individual conscious perspective or an Eye/I, Hence the entire 27x27 table represents the unified macrocosmic collective perspective or an All-Seeing Eye.
I have decided to call this collaboration B.A.S.E. -Baphomet's All Seeing Eye. 
I will stop here.  There is an endless depth to all of this.  But too much to include here.  I've left out a lot but tried to include some of the more significant ideas.  I never wanted to present this in this fashion nor in a forum, but so be it.  I'm not sure where else to really go with this.  I tried once to join the A:.A:. but received no response to my letter from the chancellor.  I hope that I have not crossed too many lines or offended anyone for that was not my intentions.  I simply wish to share what I've come to learn.  I will elaborate on any point if there is any interest. 

Earnestly,
Derek Crowley.

P.S.
Some other strange coincidences that I'd noticed:  Both my Father and Aleister (my spiritual Father?!) were named Edward Crowley but since their fathers already went by that name they went by their middle names; Aleister's Sun was in Libra, his Moon in Pisces and was a Leo rising while my Sun was in Leo, Moon in Pisces and the first degree of Libra rising; My birthday 7/29 (Baphomet/Child) is the 210th (Chaos/Father) day of the year and is the 156th (Babalon/Mother) day left in the year.  The Masculine/Father symbol of the phallus (circle with a dot in the centre) and the Feminine/Mother symbol of the Vulva (Vesica Piscis) when combined form the basic geometrical figure of an Eye/the Child.  The interplay of concentric and intersecting circles and thereby also the Vesica Piscis is what makes up the Flower of Life.


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Los
 Los
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2197
11/05/2012 6:03 am  

Allow me to take a page from the Azidonis book of "how to make a post consisting of nothing more than a link":

Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3838
11/05/2012 10:35 am  

Some interesting coincidences, there, Derek. I'm not sure that it adds up to a particular link between Crowley and you. Coincidences happen a lot; sometimes they appear meaningful, sometimes not; it's a very subjective matter.

So far as being a "centre of pestilence" is concerned, it's my experience that most Thelemites are happy to discuss the contents of The Book of the Law, the disapproval of the fundamentalists notwithstanding; few will regard you as a "centre of peslilence, and are best ignored.

In my opinion it's not true that we cannot be aware of any consciousness other than our own. This however is somewhat off-topic here; it is something which gets discussed in other threads from time to time, though.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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Azidonis
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11/05/2012 4:03 pm  
"Los" wrote:
Allow me to take a page from the Azidonis book of "how to make a post consisting of nothing more than a link":

Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy

🙂


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
10/06/2012 9:31 pm  

I do apologize for not just having a link posted, but I'm not sure how to go about it.  I do not have it posted on another website or something, I simply wrote this as I went along to clarify what I was referring to in my previous post.  I only wanted to get some feedback from the people I feel my discoveries might mean something to.  Again, there is SO much more to this that I wish to share, but what's the point if these "coincidences" have little or no significance.  I strongly urge you to look into these items for yourself.  Thank you for all replies.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Posts: 5314
10/06/2012 9:45 pm  

Derek,

You believe you are the 'one who cometh after' and are perhaps impressed by the coincidence of your surname.

This sort of 'feeling' - for example, believing oneself to be AC's reincarnation - isn't especially unusual - Thelema is littered with people claiming the same and using Qabalistic noodlings to provide 'proof'. It's a phase you're going through and you needn't be embarrassed, but it's likely that you'll become disillusioned and depart, denouncing Thelema or this site as nonsense, or maybe you'll grow out of it and focus on doing the Work.

Let's hope it's the latter.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
10/06/2012 10:20 pm  

I'm not going to deny that I have a huge ego with several personal things to work out.  However,  it seems (with the replies I receive) that most readers do not look past my own personal ego-inflation and look into what I'm trying to point out.  My personal numbers, etc. are only HOW I was able to find what I did.  What I am trying to reach out to people with is something that I feel (but have difficulty displaying) is beyond me.  PLEASE, please find the 27x27 magic square of 729, which Fideler refers to as "The Philosophers Stone".  Because I do not want to post all kinds of images and write out a book here, I can only refer you to what is not hard to find.  I have only received ONE private message regarding the information, the rest are aimed at me and my unfortunate but necessary ego-centric predicament.  I'm not looking for praise,  but maybe I found something that if people would look at, they might understand that what I've found is an insight that may help them in their own search for themselves.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
11/06/2012 3:10 am  

Hello DCCXXIX,

Can you tell us -- without the "personal ego-inflation" --  what it is you're trying to point out?

(I am having trouble separating the two.)

What is the insight that might help us in our own search to find ourselves?

Thanks,
a


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Los
 Los
(@los)
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Posts: 2197
11/06/2012 6:08 am  
"DCCXXIX" wrote:
maybe I found something

You haven't. You've invested a bunch of random coincidences with meaning and mistakenly concluded that these random coincidences objectively mean something. They don't. Your mind is tricking you.

According to Crowley, Thelema is, at root, about learning to distinguish between the mind and reality. Most people live in a world that their thoughts construct, mistaking their subjective impression of reality for reality itself. What you've displayed earlier in this thread is a kind of hyper-version of this mistake, whereby your mind assumes that things that strike it as "special" really *are* special in some way.

You're completely and totally off base with that conclusion.

Here's the good news, though: as soon as you can expand your consciousness to the point that you can perceive that all the stuff you posted earlier in the thread is a load of nonsense that has nothing to do with reality, then a lot of your most serious delusions will likely tumble like a house of cards.

I would recommend studying logic, critical thinking, and skepticism. Read that link I posted earlier in the thread. Look up topics like "The Bible Code" on the Skeptic's Dictionary and get a feel for why all of this numerology stuff is total crap. Then start applying skepticism to your own beliefs.

It's the only way out of a prison that you've constructed for yourself. Good luck.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
11/06/2012 7:55 am  

"Thou art emphatically my chosen; and blessed are the eyes that thou shalt look upon with gladness.  But I will hide thee in a mask of sorrow:  they that see thee shall fear thou art fallen:  but I lift thee up.  Nor shall they who cry aloud their folly that thou meanest nought avail; thou shall reveal it:  thou availest:  they are the slaves of because:  They are not of me.  The stops as thou wilt; the letters?  change them not in style or value!  Thou shalt obtain the order & value of the English Alphabet; thou shalt find new symbols to attribute them unto.  Begone!  ye mockers; even though ye laugh in my honour ye shall laugh not long:  then when ye are sad know that I have forsaken you."
      -Liber AL, II:53-56


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
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11/06/2012 1:17 pm  
"Los" wrote:
"DCCXXIX" wrote:
maybe I found something

You haven't.

Pretty definitive statement.  Presumably you have impartially examined all of DCCXXIX's suggestions in detail and can provide proofs that it is all in error.  Or are you simply shooting from the prejudicial hip based on a personal heavy investment in your versions of "logic, critical thinking, and skepticism" (an interesting variant on a Holy Trinity)?

"Los" wrote:
....all of this numerology stuff is total crap.

A statement that Mr A. Crowley, originator and definer of Thelema as you remind us, would have been in total agreement with as clearly demonstrated by it's glaring absence from his published works.  Oh, wait...there is the mere trifle of Liber D I guess, and now I come to think of it the Roman numbering of pretty much everything he wrote according to what he saw as the appropriate value and.... (open any Liber at random and see how many pages you have to go before running into a "crap" (completely meaningless) Qaballistic value).
In his own words

"Perdurabo, Preface to Liber D" wrote:
..criticisms of the methods of the Qabalah itself have been made and disposed of in the article on the subject in “The Temple of Solomon the King” (Equinox V) and no further reference need be made to them in this place. It is only necessary to say that that article should be studied most thoroughly, and also the article “A Note on Genesis” in the second number of The Equinox.  With these two weapons, and the Sword of the Spirit, the Practicus, fully armed, may adventure himself in the great battle wherein victory is Truth.

For full disclosure I personally do not spend much time looking into numerological values of anything but I cannot deny that Mr A. Crowley seems to have done so and apparently considered it worthwhile.  I also have no idea at all if DCCXXIX has stumbled upon something of value or interest beyond the strictly personal but as I am not about to spend the time to actually test to destruction his suggestion I cannot in all honesty state categorically that it is either treasure or dross.  I would suspect that it falls somewhere between the two absolutes.


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Los
 Los
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11/06/2012 3:46 pm  
"amadan-De" wrote:
Presumably you have impartially examined all of DCCXXIX's suggestions in detail and can provide proofs that it is all in error.

I've examined his suggestions sufficiently. See the link I posted earlier in the thread about the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.

Besides, you've formulated this entirely backwards: generally speaking, intelligent inquiry does not begin by asking, "can you prove that some guy's rambling number games do *not* demonstrate that there's something objectively special going on??"

The default position is not to accept a claim until there is compelling evidence to think that it's true.

I cannot deny that Mr A. Crowley seems to have [used numerology] and apparently considered it worthwhile.

When did I claim otherwise? You seem to think "Crowley thought so!" carries some weight when we're discussing whether something is true or not: it doesn't  (Of course, it *does* carry a lot of weight when we discuss what Crowley actually said, which is an entirely separate subject from whether what he said is true)

Or are you simply shooting from the prejudicial hip based on a personal heavy investment in your versions of "logic, critical thinking, and skepticism" (an interesting variant on a Holy Trinity)?

I must have really cheesed you off somewhere along the way, because you keep making snide comments at me in a number of threads.

And you're free to do that, but I really don't think it's appropriate to try to pick a fight with me in a thread where some poor soul actually needs people to encourage him to think critically.


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Markus
(@markus)
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Posts: 253
11/06/2012 5:23 pm  

The arguments put forth by DCCXXIX and Los remind me of the old chicken & egg debate. You are both right and therefore both wrong, or, to clarify: the numbers and meanings generated by gematria and other means are not random. They show deep truths that help us broaden our thinking and aid our enlightenment. At the same time, however, they are total tosh and merely confuse and decieve us. Once you realise this, you'll find that essentially Los and DCCXXIX are simply arguing different sides of one and the same coin. - The first couple of chapters of Hegel's "Phenomenology of the Mind" are a potent antidote.

Markus


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
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11/06/2012 7:49 pm  
"Los" wrote:
The default position is not to accept a claim until there is compelling evidence to think that it's true.

In my line of work being prepared to accept the possibility of wildly different interpretations of what is always incomplete evidence is essential.  Measuring multiple possible paradigms against each other is the method.  I find that the same approach works pretty well when applied more widely.  Note: "accepting the possibility" does not mean "make a core belief" but some of us seem happier with a reality that includes many shades of certainty/uncertainty than others.

"Los" wrote:

I cannot deny that Mr A. Crowley seems to have [used numerology] and apparently considered it worthwhile.

When did I claim otherwise? You seem to think "Crowley thought so!" carries some weight when we're discussing whether something is true or not: it doesn't  (Of course, it *does* carry a lot of weight when we discuss what Crowley actually said, which is an entirely separate subject from whether what he said is true)

I most certainly do not think that "Crowley thought so!" gives anything any weight at all and do not think that I have ever suggested otherwise.  God I hope not.  You on the other hand frequently cite him as an (or even the) authority viz. the start of your second paragraph in the post I was quoting from:

"Los" wrote:
According to Crowley, Thelema is, at root,.....etc. etc.

  I was merely pointing out your inconsistency in citing someone who blatantly disagreed with your claim that "numerology is crap" as the paramount authority on (what you see as) a Thelema which treats numerology as delusional.

"Los" wrote:

Or are you simply shooting from the prejudicial hip based on a personal heavy investment in your versions of "logic, critical thinking, and skepticism" (an interesting variant on a Holy Trinity)?

I must have really cheesed you off somewhere along the way, because you keep making snide comments at me in a number of threads.

And you're free to do that, but I really don't think it's appropriate to try to pick a fight with me in a thread where some poor soul actually needs people to encourage him to think critically.

I suspect that DCCXXIX disagrees with your rather brusque appraisal of both what he/she is trying to communicate and her/his situation.  I see a preoccupation with things that may very well be simple random coincidence but I also see an attempt to engage with and explore these rather than simply blindly following where they lead.  DCCXXIX has also made it quite clear (to my reading anyway) that the personal coincidences are not the main thrust of what is being offered for discussion.

Thanks for permission to disagree.  Twice in recent memory does not add up to "a number of threads" in my maths but maybe my impact is larger than I would ever imagine.  Rather than your single-minded declaration that only one-side of the coin (Thanks Markus) can have any validity I prefer to keep in mind that there are always at least two sides and an edge while leaving permanently open the option to test to destruction any presumed overarching structure without favour or prejudice.  I wil attempt to keep my peeps more muffled in future.  :-X


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
12/06/2012 4:19 am  
"amadan-De" wrote:
You on the other hand frequently cite him as an (or even the) authority viz. the start of your second paragraph in the post I was quoting from:

"Los" wrote:
According to Crowley, Thelema is, at root,.....etc. etc.

Well, you see, Crowley was kind of an authority on Thelema, as he invented it. So to quote Crowley as an authority on something as basic as what Thelema actually is, is entirely appropriate. The fact that Crowley apparently gave credence to silly number games is not good evidence, as Los rightly points out, for the legitimacy of silly number games.

Los is trying to help this chap, who's befuddled his poor mind with a load of old crap, and I don't think it's responsible of you to infer that these fatuous delusions of grandeur may have some actual significance beyond the superficial subjective impression they have made upon him.


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2197
12/06/2012 4:34 am  
"amadan-De" wrote:
In my line of work being prepared to accept the possibility of wildly different interpretations of what is always incomplete evidence is essential.

There is a not insignificant difference between "prepared to accept" a claim and "accepting" a claim. 

I was merely pointing out your inconsistency in citing someone who blatantly disagreed with your claim that "numerology is crap" as the paramount authority on (what you see as) a Thelema which treats numerology as delusional.

Crowley is the authority on what Thelema is since he invented it (that is to say, its basic principles all derive from his interpretation of Liber AL). He's an authority on Thelema like Darwin is an authority on evolution: he came up with the basic principles, but the exact details of it can be refined and made more explicit as we learn more about the subject.

It's not "inconsistent" to say, "Here's the definition of Thelema. Oh, and by the way, the founder of this philosophy held a belief on numerology, an entirely different subject, and his belief is false."

I wil attempt to keep my peeps more muffled in future.

You do whatever you want. I'm only going to bother replying to you if I feel like the response will have instructional value for people reading these threads.


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2197
12/06/2012 4:40 am  
"Markus" wrote:
the numbers and meanings generated by gematria and other means are not random. They show deep truths that help us broaden our thinking and aid our enlightenment.

I don't disagree that the results of gematria might be meaningful to an individual and might -- emphasis on the "might" -- be useful to attainment by overwhelming the mind with correspondences as a prelude to enabling the aspirant to see past the mind and discover the True Will by observing it in real time. Indirectly, they might -- again, emphasis on "might" -- assist the mind in perceiving more broadly, in breaking through restricting, which can be useful as a prelude for the Work of discovering the True Will by observing it in real time.

But make no mistake, the coincidences between numbers themselves are random and the connections drawn thereby aren't "truths" in the sense of conveying factual information about the world.

The arguments put forth by DCCXXIX and Los remind me of the old chicken & egg debate.

You do realize that the egg demonstrably came first, right?


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William Thirteen
(@williamthirteen)
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Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1098
12/06/2012 7:34 am  

of course, since, as we know, "It's all in the Egg!"


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 690
12/06/2012 10:17 am  
"Los" wrote:
"amadan-De" wrote:
In my line of work being prepared to accept the possibility of wildly different interpretations of what is always incomplete evidence is essential.

There is a not insignificant difference between "prepared to accept" a claim and "accepting" a claim.

Exactly - dogma interferes with that 'preparedness'.

"Los" wrote:

I was merely pointing out your inconsistency in citing someone who blatantly disagreed with your claim that "numerology is crap" as the paramount authority on (what you see as) a Thelema which treats numerology as delusional.

Crowley is the authority on what Thelema is since he invented it (that is to say, its basic principles all derive from his interpretation of Liber AL). He's an authority on Thelema like Darwin is an authority on evolution: he came up with the basic principles, but the exact details of it can be refined and made more explicit as we learn more about the subject.

It's not "inconsistent" to say, "Here's the definition of Thelema. Oh, and by the way, the founder of this philosophy held a belief on numerology, an entirely different subject, and his belief is false."

I wil attempt to keep my peeps more muffled in future.

You do whatever you want. I'm only going to bother replying to you if I feel like the response will have instructional value for people reading these threads.

Uh-huh. Keep up the faith.
Laters.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
13/06/2012 1:19 am  



Initially, all I was trying to point out was that this sigil of the SPIRIT OF THE SUN created on the magic square OF THE SUN, looks REMARKABLY like the circle and line drawn on this grid page.  It just so happens that this word apparently means 'Beast' and adds up to '666' in Gematria.  And AC who took these titles for himself never makes any mention of this similarity, nor has anyone else to my knowledge.
The word is spelled SVRT, a four lettered (fourfold) word that represents the winged sun, or spiritual sun, the black sun, an invisible sun, son of the sun, etc.  Archaic names were created with the numerological significance of what they represent in mind, such as Mithras and Abraxas which equal 365.  (See David Fideler, 'Jesus Christ, Sun of God').
Horus is depicted as this same winged sun, so it made sense to me that perhaps this is "Hoor in his secret name", "thy name, foursquare, mystic, wonderful, the number of the man", "hidden and glorious, as the sun of midnight is ever the son". 
With the lack of numbered passages between Liber Trigrammaton and Liber AL adding up to 93, it seems there is perhaps a link between them also.  Obviously, the Trigrams of Trigrammaton are to be coupled with one another (just as the original I Ching trigrams are) to create a table of 729 Hexagrams (again, the sun) to expand the I Ching's 64.  (Google TEQ and Kamea of Baphomet for example).
There just happens to be another table, known as the 'magic square of 729', that has the numbers from 1-729 arranged in the same pattern as the 'Lo Shu' or 'magic square/Kamea of Saturn'.  (The origin for the I Ching's 8 Trigrams). 
"The number 729 is found to be of great importance all through the Pythagorean system.  Plutarch states that this was the number belonging to the sun,  just as 243 was ascribed to Venus, 81 to Mercury, 27 to the Moon, 9 to the Earth, and 3 to Antichthon (the earth opposite to ours).  These and many similar numbers were derived from one of the progressions of the Tetractys,...........
......It will be noted that we have 365 white squares or days and 364 dark squares or nights - a veritable 'checkerboard of nights and days.'  The number 365, the days of a solar year, very appropriately occupies the centre of the system.  The columns, horizontals, and diagonals of the central square 3x3 foot up 1095, or the days of a 3 year period, those of the larger centre square 9x9 foot up 3285 the days of a 9 year period, while those of the entire combination 27x27 foot up 9855,* (*Not only the perpendiculars, horizontals, and diagonals of this large square foot up 9855, but there are an almost indefinite number of zig-zag lines, which give the same footing), the days of a 27 year period, -in other words, periods of years corresponding to the Tetractys 1, 3, 9, 27.  We may with safety borrow the language of Plato and say the above arrangement of numbers 'is concerned with days and nights and months and years'."
    -Magic Squares and Cubes, W.S. Andrews.
With a little luck, I was able to apply the 729 possible combinations from Pythagorean Numerology flawlessly to the above magic square, (in the same pattern of the 'Lo Shu' or Magic Square of Saturn), thereby applying "the order and value of the English Alphabet" to an already existing magic square ascribed to the sun, and attributing the "new symbols" found in Liber Trigrammaton as well.  I did not discover the 'checkerboard' magic square until years after applying the numerology.  Shortly after that, I found David Fideler's book, who calls this square an Omphalos, the navel or centre of the world or universe.  (Where life began, etc.).  There is a similar icon in every major culture.  For example, Google images 'omphalos at Delphi' then 'Vatican pinecone', and notice the same egg-shape (Vesica Piscis) covered in a grid-like pattern.  This is based on the same-shaped Pineal Gland or Third Eye located in the CENTRE of our brains. 
I do not believe in coincidence, I never have.  I'd rather refer to these events as synchronicity.  And if things happen by random chance, then randomness becomes the pattern.  The only constant is change.  The apparent chaos is only part of a larger order.  Take, for instance, the "irrational" number, the divine proportion, 'Phi', and fractals, etc.  Some things transcend rational thought, and cannot be explained by reason alone.  "Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise."
-AL,II:32
My perception is that the only truth we have is our unique perspectives.  Truth is subjective.  What is true is true for you and no one else.  Everything you have ever thought, experienced, learned, etc. and everything you now and always will think, experience, learn, etc. will always be in relation to YOU.  Self-knowledge is universal knowledge.  Hence the expression, 'know thyself'.  If then, we are in relation to everything, we can perceive everything as a metaphorical mirror.  "Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.  But whoso availeth in this, let him be the cheif of all." -AL,I:22,23 Thus you are the creator of your own experience, the sun and order which everything revolves around.  The Eye of the storm.  Therefore, going along with this, synchronistic events were created by you, perhaps unconsciously, and occur like little white rabbits that if we follow, we find our true path to ourselves.  I cannot prove to you that this is "True", or that I personally have experienced this.  I can, however, suggest that if you pay attention to these events, personally interpreting them yourself as you would a dream or tarot reading, and following them until you understand what the universe (Your subconscious) is trying to tell you, that you will find your centre, your true self.  "Success is thy proof."


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
13/06/2012 1:21 am  

p.s. I'm not sure how to insert images.  any suggestions?


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 5314
13/06/2012 8:34 am  

Just click 'Attachment and other options' and upload from your PC.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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pad631
(@pad631)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 51
13/06/2012 9:15 am  

Is there any valid proof that the L.A was  in any way the exclusively property of Crowley ,
and his own Path consequentially.
And now we all should only interpret the historical events that took the  place.
This could be and is the really interesting. But what are the practical ways of these lessons for others.
I suppose it would be a interesting field, as a kind of hobby.


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michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1278
13/06/2012 9:27 pm  

Like a lot of things in Thelema - it's pretty ambiguous.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
15/06/2012 12:16 pm  

These are the images I meant to include......


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
15/06/2012 5:20 pm  
"DCCXXIX" wrote:


Initially, all I was trying to point out was that this sigil of the SPIRIT OF THE SUN created on the magic square OF THE SUN, looks REMARKABLY like the circle and line drawn on this grid page.  It just so happens that this word apparently means 'Beast' and adds up to '666' in Gematria.  And AC who took these titles for himself never makes any mention of this similarity, nor has anyone else to my knowledge.
The word is spelled SVRT, a four lettered (fourfold) word that represents the winged sun, or spiritual sun, the black sun, an invisible sun, son of the sun, etc.  Archaic names were created with the numerological significance of what they represent in mind, such as Mithras and Abraxas which equal 365.  (See David Fideler, 'Jesus Christ, Sun of God').
Horus is depicted as this same winged sun, so it made sense to me that perhaps this is "Hoor in his secret name", "thy name, foursquare, mystic, wonderful, the number of the man", "hidden and glorious, as the sun of midnight is ever the son". 
With the lack of numbered passages between Liber Trigrammaton and Liber AL adding up to 93, it seems there is perhaps a link between them also.  Obviously, the Trigrams of Trigrammaton are to be coupled with one another (just as the original I Ching trigrams are) to create a table of 729 Hexagrams (again, the sun) to expand the I Ching's 64.  (Google TEQ and Kamea of Baphomet for example).
There just happens to be another table, known as the 'magic square of 729', that has the numbers from 1-729 arranged in the same pattern as the 'Lo Shu' or 'magic square/Kamea of Saturn'.  (The origin for the I Ching's 8 Trigrams). 
"The number 729 is found to be of great importance all through the Pythagorean system.  Plutarch states that this was the number belonging to the sun,  just as 243 was ascribed to Venus, 81 to Mercury, 27 to the Moon, 9 to the Earth, and 3 to Antichthon (the earth opposite to ours).  These and many similar numbers were derived from one of the progressions of the Tetractys,...........
......It will be noted that we have 365 white squares or days and 364 dark squares or nights - a veritable 'checkerboard of nights and days.'  The number 365, the days of a solar year, very appropriately occupies the centre of the system.  The columns, horizontals, and diagonals of the central square 3x3 foot up 1095, or the days of a 3 year period, those of the larger centre square 9x9 foot up 3285 the days of a 9 year period, while those of the entire combination 27x27 foot up 9855,* (*Not only the perpendiculars, horizontals, and diagonals of this large square foot up 9855, but there are an almost indefinite number of zig-zag lines, which give the same footing), the days of a 27 year period, -in other words, periods of years corresponding to the Tetractys 1, 3, 9, 27.  We may with safety borrow the language of Plato and say the above arrangement of numbers 'is concerned with days and nights and months and years'."
    -Magic Squares and Cubes, W.S. Andrews.
With a little luck, I was able to apply the 729 possible combinations from Pythagorean Numerology flawlessly to the above magic square, (in the same pattern of the 'Lo Shu' or Magic Square of Saturn), thereby applying "the order and value of the English Alphabet" to an already existing magic square ascribed to the sun, and attributing the "new symbols" found in Liber Trigrammaton as well.  I did not discover the 'checkerboard' magic square until years after applying the numerology.  Shortly after that, I found David Fideler's book, who calls this square an Omphalos, the navel or centre of the world or universe.  (Where life began, etc.).  There is a similar icon in every major culture.  For example, Google images 'omphalos at Delphi' then 'Vatican pinecone', and notice the same egg-shape (Vesica Piscis) covered in a grid-like pattern.  This is based on the same-shaped Pineal Gland or Third Eye located in the CENTRE of our brains. 
I do not believe in coincidence, I never have.  I'd rather refer to these events as synchronicity.  And if things happen by random chance, then randomness becomes the pattern.  The only constant is change.  The apparent chaos is only part of a larger order.  Take, for instance, the "irrational" number, the divine proportion, 'Phi', and fractals, etc.  Some things transcend rational thought, and cannot be explained by reason alone.  "Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise."
-AL,II:32
My perception is that the only truth we have is our unique perspectives.  Truth is subjective.  What is true is true for you and no one else.  Everything you have ever thought, experienced, learned, etc. and everything you now and always will think, experience, learn, etc. will always be in relation to YOU.  Self-knowledge is universal knowledge.  Hence the expression, 'know thyself'.  If then, we are in relation to everything, we can perceive everything as a metaphorical mirror.  "Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.  But whoso availeth in this, let him be the cheif of all." -AL,I:22,23 Thus you are the creator of your own experience, the sun and order which everything revolves around.  The Eye of the storm.  Therefore, going along with this, synchronistic events were created by you, perhaps unconsciously, and occur like little white rabbits that if we follow, we find our true path to ourselves.  I cannot prove to you that this is "True", or that I personally have experienced this.  I can, however, suggest that if you pay attention to these events, personally interpreting them yourself as you would a dream or tarot reading, and following them until you understand what the universe (Your subconscious) is trying to tell you, that you will find your centre, your true self.  "Success is thy proof."

Might I make a suggestion of sorts?  You quote: "hidden and glorious, as the sun of midnight is ever the son".  The "sun of midnight" is the Black Sun.  This Dark Twin of the Sun/Horus/Ra-Hoor-Khuit is Set/Hoor-par-kraat.  There is a lack of balance with a strictly Solar Centered point of view of the universe/self.  The Twin God, Set-Horus, is the balance.  I suggest that you meditate on Crowley's "Mark of the Beast", paying special attention to the symbolism of the sun and moon conjoined.

In the Night of Pan,


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pad631
(@pad631)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 51
16/06/2012 11:08 pm  

I believe that Thelema itself does not have an important role in the formation of any new society. Or any new religion.Simply because it is a personal path and a free will of every individual and not the  whole of society. Maybe someone would like to have something like that, but let them think again about everything.
As I said earlier, maybe all the new Thelemits should find their own interpretation of the LA. Simply because that's how it was written by the LA itself .
Some of the interpretations may fall into the categories such was the ordinary hobby. Something that resembling  of  work of tired teachers in the university, who are still looking to understand some of the hidden messages there.

93


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