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 Anonymous
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12/10/2009 8:24 pm  

Is it generally accepted that AC came up with this phrase?

I recently ran across it in an 18th century source which I'm sure would have been known to AC...


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Palamedes
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12/10/2009 8:32 pm  

Could you reference the source, Anticredos.


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 Anonymous
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12/10/2009 8:53 pm  

I will shortly - I just wanted to establish if it was either: a) a well known fact that he derived if from another source and b) that I'm not stepping on the toes of any other researchers that are working in this area.

I'll make a full disclosure shortly, since with my backlog of writing projects I'm not gonna have time to go further with this line of enquiry for the next couple of years.


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lashtal
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12/10/2009 9:05 pm  

I'm curious to know where you think you've read "Every Man and Woman is a Star" in Crowley's writings?

You presumably mean Every man and every woman is a star (AL I:3)?

Okay - back to you. I'd love to know if you've seen the actual Crowley quote elsewhere, from "an 18th century source."

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 Anonymous
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12/10/2009 10:10 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
I'm curious to know where you think you've read "Every Man and Woman is a Star" in Crowley's writings?

You presumably mean Every man and every woman is a star (AL I:3)?

Okay - back to you. I'd love to know if you've seen the actual Crowley quote elsewhere, from "an 18th century source."

My apologies for not quoting the Holy Book verbatim. Since my text only says "Every man and woman is a star", omitting the additional "every" I suppose we may as well lock this thread.


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lashtal
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12/10/2009 10:51 pm  

I'd still love to know where you've seen the phrase elsewhere.

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Palamedes
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12/10/2009 11:02 pm  

I mean, there is an ancient correlation between the humans and the stars, hence astrology and related disciplines. In the classical antiquity, the stars were considered as gods. My guess is that the phrase to which Anticredos is referring probably originated with Paracelsus and/or his circle of disciples. As far as I know, he mentions somewhere in his writings something similar and in general, he was upholding a view that we each carry a starry firmament in our souls. I'll bet my five cents on Paracelsus, when it comes to this phrase (not necessarily worded the same way as in Liber AL).


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 Anonymous
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12/10/2009 11:14 pm  

Okay, the following is from the pen of W.E. Gilbert. His series on the fundamentals of astrology which was serialised in The Conjuror's Magazine, from which the following also comes:

"But, after all, how do the stars operate, or how are they indexes? Do they not take away free will? No: they operate as men operate: and they are indexes as looking glasses. Every man and woman is a star. The stellar virttues are appropriated, inherent, acttive, and vital in them." (Vol.I, April 1792, p. 390)

My eye fell upon the above while researching literature known to both Ebenezer Sibly and Fred Hockley. I suppose it's not too far-fetched to suppose that AC may have come across The Conjuror's Magazine through a GD connection at some point, but have no time at present to follow this up.

On a similar tack, I saw that a "Liber Legis" is mentioned in Rosenroth's Kabala Denudata (Vol.I, p.606), a book which I have no doubts AC knew!

Sorry for the testy reply earlier, Paul - your comment rubbed me up the wrong way a little!


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 Anonymous
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12/10/2009 11:30 pm  

Correction - W. Gilbert - no idea where that extra "E" crept in.


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 Anonymous
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12/10/2009 11:33 pm  

Iskandar - I'm just moving house and put my Paracelsus in a box yesterday, but he does indeed refer to the "star in man" in several places, though does not - to my knowledge - ever use a phrase as close to Crowley's as that cited above.


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lashtal
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12/10/2009 11:38 pm  
"Anticredos" wrote:
Sorry for the testy reply earlier, Paul - your comment rubbed me up the wrong way a little!

No worries. I meant no offence, by the way…

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Palamedes
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12/10/2009 11:49 pm  

Thanks for the clarification Anticredos.
Liber AL does contain several phrases and ideas that have been around for some quite time: circumference and the center is one of them, recycled several times in various historical contexts; the abomination of desolation comes from the Apocalypse, just as 'who is righteous shall be righteous still and who is filthy shall be filthy still' (my paraphrase), etc. My position is that it is not novelty that is important or interesting in Liber AL but a particular combination and in that sense the new structure (or meaning) of its constitutive elements. Still, an interesting find. Nice one.


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kidneyhawk
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13/10/2009 4:01 pm  

While not a direct correlation, William Blake, predating Crowley, observed:

Each grain of sand,
Every stone on the land,
Each rock and each hill,
Each fountain and rill,
Each herb and each tree,
Mountain, hill, earth, and sea,
Cloud, meteor, and star,
Are men seen afar
.


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IAO131
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13/10/2009 7:51 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
While not a direct correlation, William Blake, predating Crowley, observed:

Each grain of sand,
Every stone on the land,
Each rock and each hill,
Each fountain and rill,
Each herb and each tree,
Mountain, hill, earth, and sea,
Cloud, meteor, and star,
Are men seen afar
.

I'd say there are plenty of references that could be considered 'Thelemic':

"Be strong! Don’t talk of ghosts and devils. We are the living devils. The sign of life is strength and growth. The sign of death is weakness. Whatever is weak, avoid! It is death. If it is strength, go down into hell and get hold of it! There is salvation only for the brave."
-Swami Vivekananda

“Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing wonder and awe: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me.” -Immanuel Kant

"Free from what? What doth that matter to Zarathustra! Clearly, however, shall thine eye show unto me: free for what? Canst thou give unto thyself thy bad and thy good, and set up thy will as a law over thee? Canst thou be judge for thyself, and avenger of thy law? Terrible is aloneness with the judge and avenger of one's own law. Thus is a star projected into desert space, and into the icy breath of alone..."
-Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra, chapter 17

" To free ourselves from the slavery of the Passions, from the tyranny of Prejudices, from the errors of Ignorance, the pains of Fear, and the anxieties of Desires, this is the Work of Life... It is a question of being or not being. The free man is alone a man; slaves are but animals or children... St. Augustine sums up the whole law in this fine saying: 'Love, and do what you like...' The free man can wish nothing but what is good, for all wicked men are slaves." "
-Eliphas Levi, Paradoxes of the Highest Science, p.18

"It is the common opinion of all the holy Men who have treated of the Spirit, and of all the Mystical Matters: That the Soul cannot attain to perfection and an union with God, by means of Meditation, and Ratiocination [Reasoning]"
-Miguel de Molinos

"To will what we ought, that is to will what God wills . And when the will of man is the same as the divine will it becomes omnipotent."
-Eliphas Levi, Paradoxes of the Highest Science, p.24-25 "

"The place where love has its being is only in the will; the person who has more will, also has more love. But no one knows about anyone else, whether one has more of it; that lies hidden in the soul, so long as God lies hidden in the soul's ground. This love lies wholly in the will; whoever has more will, also has more love."
-Meister Eckhart, Counsels on Discernment (Counsel 10)

"If it is true, as I have tried to show, that love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence, then any society which excludes, relatively, the development of love, must in the long run perish of its own contradiction with the basic necessities of human nature. "
-Erich Fromm, The Art of Loving (1956)

"63. Star Morals
Called a star's orbit to pursue,
What is the darkness, star, to you?
Roll on in bliss, traverse this age —
Its misery far from you and strange.
Let farthest world your light secure.
Pity is sin you must abjure.
But one command is yours: be pure!"
-Nietzsche, Gay Science

"Experience is, for me, the highest authority. The touchstone of validity is my own experience. No other person's ideas, and none of my own ideas, are as authoritative as my experience. It is to experience that I must return again and again, to discover a closer approximation to truth as it is in the process of becoming in me. Neither the Bible nor the prophets -- neither Freud nor research --neither the revelations of God nor man -- can take precedence over my own direct experience. My experience is not authoritative because it is infallible. It is the basis of authority because it can always be checked in new primary ways. In this way its frequent error or fallibility is always open to correction."
-Carl Rogers, On Becoming a Person

etc etc etc.

I always found it interesting when someone says Thelema isnt original or novel simply because certain phrases are found elsewehre (the most common one I find is people citing Rabelais as if Rabelais developed the system of Thelema in its entirety before Crowley came along)

IAO131


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 Anonymous
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13/10/2009 8:27 pm  

Don't get me wrong - I wasn't trying to say that Crowley vision wasn't original. Just that like many I'd assumed that the phrase under discussion was formulated by AC himelf under the influence of Paracelsan ideas. I was then just struck by how profoundly similar Wm. Gilbert's phrase was.

The two volumes of the Conjuror's Magazine were well known to those involved in occultism in the 19th and early 20th century. It was certainly known amongst members of in the occult revival that would eventually flourish in the GD and comes up fairly regularly in booksellers' catalogues of the period.

As an aside, it's funny how some phrases often creep into our psyches and then emerge almost verbatim sometime later in our own creations - I think Jung had a term for this, but my memory eludes me.


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 Anonymous
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21/11/2009 4:18 am  

hmmm... maybe it's that common denominator we all share, star kids! it's been said for aeons because that's just how it is... 🙂

loving it all! but it goes beyond the written occult, these were and still are oral traditions in some indigenous pockets...


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 Anonymous
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21/11/2009 7:15 am  

Every star 'shines', because he constantly burns his own substance. If the substance is gone, it goes just out (of 'shining'). Some go with a bang, but only if they had enough mass or a co-partner

For the ancient not every star was the same. 'Ever living' where only those on the northern pole of the sky around the imaginary zero point of extension of the rotations-axis of the earth mother, because they the never got under the horizon, and where in this way seen as outside the cycles of reincarnation.


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 Anonymous
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21/11/2009 7:57 am  

Every star has his unique own way, but none can change it out of free will, because it's constantly stooped through the sum of all other mass acting through universal gravitational constant through space.


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 Anonymous
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21/11/2009 8:01 am  

good point moyal

i pondered this a bit due to special interest. while i am drawn to star knowledge, it always baffles me too. reason: i am native american. while some indigenous people have lore rooted in the stars (ie, lakota and star nations) where i'm split (split, both parents both native from different parts, one attributes origins from the stars) is that our calif. roots are heavily rooted in being from the earth, mud. i find thelema an interesting anchor in my own growth due to these little pieces.

For the ancient not every star was the same. 'Ever living' where only those on the northern pole of the sky around the imaginary zero point of extension of the rotations-axis of the earth mother, because they the never got under the horizon, and where in this way seen as outside the cycles of reincarnation. <<<

this is an element i want to know more about... can't remember the attributes at the moment, but surely a new quest begins! i' not sure if lineage plays a role, but i know it does nowadays, at least for my tribes in these trying times. the tree blooms!


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 Anonymous
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21/11/2009 8:27 am  

Most matter in universe seems to be dark (aka not 'shining'.)


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 Anonymous
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21/11/2009 10:31 am  
"anistara" wrote:
[...]this is an element i want to know more about...

"-"It's all in the egg"-"

recommended reading:

* Jarl Widar [aka Weisthor aka Karl Maria Willigut]: Die Schöpfungsspirale, das "Weltenei !"' in Hagal 9, 1934
(facsimile in Hans-Jürgen Lange: WEISTHOR - Karl Maria Wiligut: Himmlers Rasputin und seine Erben. An English translation can be found in: Stephen E. Flowers and Michael Moynihan: THE SECRET KING - The Myth and Reality of Nazi Occultism)

* Alick Bartholomew: Hidden Nature - The Startling Insight of Viktor Schauberger

* Callum Coats: LIVING ENERGIES - Viktor Schauberger's Brilliant Work with Natural Energy Explained

* Joseph P. Farrell: the PHILOSOPHER'S STONE - ALCHEMY and the SECRET RESEARCH for EXOTIC MATTER

* Joseph P. Farrell: SECRETS OF THE UNIFIED FIELD - The Philadelphia Experiment, The Nazi Bell, and the Discarded Theory

+ all works of Peryt Shou
(no English translation available that I'm aware of)


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 Anonymous
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21/11/2009 10:37 am  

Wiligut not Willigut


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 Anonymous
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21/11/2009 10:54 am  

even more reading:

* Fra.'. Pacitius:
- Vom Urgrund der Welt in SATURN GNOSIS Heft 1, Jahrgang 1
- Der Sternenmensch in SATURN GNOSIS Heft 2, Jahrgang 1

I thankfully request any info about this guy.


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lashtal
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21/11/2009 12:28 pm  

Moderator's Note

Not for the first time, Moyal, please stop the multiple posts or I will withdraw your right to post without pre-moderation.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
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21/11/2009 1:30 pm  

I prefer to stop posting at all.
Tschüss


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lashtal
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21/11/2009 1:42 pm  

Fair enough. Bye.

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LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
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06/01/2010 11:55 pm  

A couple of things occurred to me as I read through this thread:

1. Nothing occurs in a vacuum. Crowley read avidly and had a marvelous memory; unconsciously "borrowing" a phrase from someone else isn't wrong. The idea that Crowley "borrowed" this phrase from Gilbert doesn't diminish the significance of Liber L.

2. One morning while performing Liber Resh vel Helios I had a vision of the Sun as a living being. This vision was quite vivid and overwhelming; it stayed with me for a long time. From this time on I have believed in the living nature of the Stars -- I believe they are born, live, and die as we do. They are sentient as we are as well.

I realize that this won't be a popular view, but I wanted to express it anyway.

Much Peace to All this New Year!

Neshamah (Seer IAO)


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sonofthestar
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07/01/2010 6:30 am  

93!

2. “One morning while performing Liber Resh vel Helios I had a vision of the Sun as a living being. This vision was quite vivid and overwhelming; it stayed with me for a long time. From this time on I have believed in the living nature of the Stars -- I believe they are born, live, and die as we do. They are sentient as we are as well.”

Indeed Seer IAO!
I concur with this understanding of The Star Life--!
However “unpopular” such a view may, or might not be,
does not at all incline me to disagree
with your description, of an eternal dawning of certain divine forms of expression.

Only the concept of a star dying, is quite impossible for my mind to apprehend;
Light being an Extension of their Life---all rays of such outpourings,
spherically manifest, as an ever lasting Expansion;
continuing
in transit--their original transmission--after explosion, or implosion.

What Wonders!
may well be given birth to---resultant from the white hot Intensity,
of some star’s exceedingly dense introversion.
Whether considered metaphorically, or as reality,
the wealth of such prospective possibilities,
is rich enough to spawn a Galaxy!

I see these Stars, especially those of a most singular and splendid variety,
as being actual “vehicles” of Initiation.
And yet,
the One Star in Sight, as represented by a tangible symbolic without,
surely, as well mysteriously,
abideth Secretly---knowable, Within.

93! 93! 93!


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Horemakhet
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07/01/2010 6:48 am  

. . . perhaps my own spaceship, & a princess, is not too much to ask for in these times? . . .


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 Anonymous
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07/01/2010 7:02 am  
"Iskandar" wrote:
My position is that it is not novelty that is important or interesting in Liber AL but a particular combination and in that sense the new structure (or meaning) of its constitutive elements. Still, an interesting find. Nice one.
"anistara" wrote:
hmmm... maybe it's that common denominator we all share, star kids! it's been said for aeons because that's just how it is... 🙂

Indeed!
As another book has it, “The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun” (Ecclesiastes A:9)

Everything exists around us. It’s merely the combination we make according to what we are, that makes the difference (perhaps this is why there are so many people on the earth; in this way we can all work on and manifest different combinations). One could say that this happens due to the collective subconscious as the substructure of our individual manifestation.

A couple of years ago, I was given a meditation where one goes and sits in the center of the Sun and watches everything around as the Sun himself; the planets traveling on their orbit, the other stars and star formations and the nebulas and so on. One then can learn how to identify oneself with the sun, staying detached in one’s center and be the true self, while at the same time allowing everyone else to do the same. At this point one can also see the other formations as different aspects of oneself and connect with them to bring closer the relevant archetypes.

You can imagine my surprise when more than a year later I read AC’s “Every man and every woman is a star”!!

Regards
Hecate


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ptoner
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07/01/2010 8:09 am  
"Seer_IAO" wrote:
A couple of things occurred to me as I read through this thread:

1. Nothing occurs in a vacuum. Crowley read avidly and had a marvelous memory; unconsciously "borrowing" a phrase from someone else isn't wrong. The idea that Crowley "borrowed" this phrase from Gilbert doesn't diminish the significance of Liber L.

2. One morning while performing Liber Resh vel Helios I had a vision of the Sun as a living being. This vision was quite vivid and overwhelming; it stayed with me for a long time. From this time on I have believed in the living nature of the Stars -- I believe they are born, live, and die as we do. They are sentient as we are as well.

I realize that this won't be a popular view, but I wanted to express it anyway.

Much Peace to All this New Year!

Neshamah (Seer IAO)

Seer, very interesting concept and may be more relevant than one thinks.
What if every single object from the largest mountain on this planet to the smallest particle has intelligence and purpose known in many cases only to its self?
What if the sun is a living, conscious being, fully aware of its self and place in the universe.

I suggest you read a book I just actually finished last night written by Gregory Sams called " Sun of gOd - Discover the Self-Organizing Consciousness Thats Underlines Everything"
Written by a man who has no experience and very minimal knowledge of the magickal world, so much of it relates directly and joins some dots, for me anyways.

Sorry for getting off topic a little.


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 Anonymous
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07/01/2010 12:09 pm  

Sidewinder?

Just finished a book on the history of the English language. I'm star tled by how words have either crept into our vocabularly or have morphed from what they originally were - both written and spoken.

From what I intuit. Hu(fe)manity realised quite a while back that 'it' issues from within, yet it took many people to recognise it in writing. What they were chatting or arguing about over the campfires >100- 200 yrs ago we'll only be able to guess. Not all were literate, nor recorded.

Xx, Mer


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Horemakhet
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07/01/2010 2:45 pm  

. . So are you saying that an oldtime illiterate campfire of peasants is a palace of starry wisdom? Or are you speaking of the progenitors of a grand literate civilisation who thought of the illiterate as idiots? I would not mix up the two, myself . . .


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gurugeorge
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07/01/2010 10:10 pm  

Actually speaking of campfires, I seem to recall reading somewhere that one of the earliest myths about the night sky that can be discerned (memory, as usual, fuzzy on provenance of this idea) is that the stars were - hearths.

i.e., campfires of other folks living up in the sky.

Which is a beautiful image actually. I recall thinking about it one night at Glastonbury several years ago, and it seemed a very natural thing to think.


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 Anonymous
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08/01/2010 1:23 pm  

2. One morning while performing Liber Resh vel Helios I had a vision of the Sun as a living being. This vision was quite vivid and overwhelming; it stayed with me for a long time. From this time on I have believed in the living nature of the Stars -- I believe they are born, live, and die as we do. They are sentient as we are as well.

Yes, definitely my experience as well!


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jamie barter
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27/05/2014 1:22 pm  

While there seems to be a vogue for thread necromancy at work on the forum at the moment, this one caught my attention (under the ‘Writer’ board, no less!)

I very much agree with this perception of Sol/ Ra, as I think I have remarked upon several times at several places on LAShTAL in the past.  The order of intelligence and sentience is utterly ‘alien’ (as in unfamiliar) and a different nature to anything else conceivable, with the only way of apprehending it by means of an analogous perception of a harmonic (=octave based?) resonance in accord with the precept of ‘that which is below corresponds with that which is above, after another manner.’  In my opinion.  How anyone can conceive of Liber Resh appertaining to a couch is beyond my comprehension – I thought it must have been a joke at first, but no!  the guy seems to be totally serious!  (And Los, you know who you are!  Own up – it is a joke, right?!?! 😮 If not, how you can persist in using your avatar name is quite beyond me!  Disgraceful!!  Blasphemy!!!)

I would imagine that a similar perception is a lot more common among Lashtalians than indicated, once one has been practicing the Resh Adorations diligently for a certain amount of time.  Though I don’t know why Seer_IAO thinks in Reply #26 “it won’t be a popular view”:

"Seer_IAO" wrote:
One morning while performing Liber Resh vel Helios I had a vision of the Sun as a living being.  This vision was quite vivid and overwhelming; it stayed with me for a long time.  From this time on I have believed in the living nature of the Stars -- I believe they are born, live, and die as we do.  They are sentient as we are as well.

I realize that this won't be a popular view, but I wanted to express it anyway.

As Paul thoughtfully suggests

"ptoner" wrote:
What if every single object from the largest mountain on this planet to the smallest particle has intelligence and purpose known in many cases only to its self?
What if the sun is a living, conscious being, fully aware of its self and place in the universe.

there is a degree of consciousness and a psychology in everything, on a scale from electrons upwards (what vanVogt has called the ‘adeledicnander’ theory).

Of particular relevance to us all is the consciousness of the planet Earth/ Terra/ Gaia itself, of which we are all in some respects a direct manifestation.  The idea of “Naton” (I choose to ignore any apostrophe there, myself!) as its global collective self consciousness, is perhaps the most vital element of its expression at the current time before an Omega point (see e.g. “Maat Magick” by Soror Nema/ Maggie Ingalls for further information if unfamiliar with this concept).  Has anyone any further thought on this, or know in which threads the same idea may have been gone into and discussed previously?  (I’m not sure further discussion would be directly appropriate to this one, which would probably relate more to Heru-ra-Ha.  Similarly, the advancement would continue – according to Liber Pennae Praenumbra, the Book of the Foreshadowing of the Feather: “Heru-Ra-Ha – Sirius – our local Milky Way galaxy – the Andromeda galaxy - …”  Intuition prompts that the force of Coph Nia would also in some way be the ongoing ‘ray of light’/consciousness which links them all.)
(♪ Ooh ooh oohoo, Can you feel the force?!)

Relating to the nature of star light and nox, A.C. quotes the following interesting extract from John Tyndall’s “Scientific Materialism”, which is germane:

Two-thirds [evidently a wild underestimate according to today’s knowledge on the subject of astral spectroscopy – j.b.] of the rays emitted by the sun fail to arouse the sense of vision.  The rays exist, but the visual organ requisite for their translation into light dots does not exist.  And so, from this region of darkness and mystery which now surrounds us, rays may now be darting, which require but the development of the proper intellectual organs to translate them into knowledge as far surpassing ours as ours surpasses that of the wallowing reptiles which once held possession of this planet.

When I first came across The Book of the Law, this particular verse struck me like a lightning cliché.  The first verse was incomprehensible at the time.  The second – yes, I could comprehend the words, but didn’t really “get” their combined meaning at the time either.  But the third!!  I can remember as a precocious 13 year old at the time thinking: “Why yes, but of course!!” for some reason.  So I read the following verses with considerable and growing attention (and I am still getting to grips with the one after – viz, “Every number is infinite; there is no difference”.  Ka-Pow!)

Incidentally I notice that this now seems to be the 2nd thread clearly related (or near enough, in this case, the lack of an "every" in the title notwithstanding!) to the discussion of a specific verse in Liber AL.  Only another 218 verses to go, before the centre of pestilence discussion forum is fully activated and becomes a reality.  (I joke, of course: there must be more than 2 verses touched upon altogether on the Lash but I haven’t hunted them all down in order to make a list…  Maybe someone else can, who has a bit more time?!? ;D )

There’s lots here for people to discuss, or argue with (especially from the sceptics’ point of view.)  Can you be bothered, is the real question?!? (- it doesn’t really matter too much either way, as just by reading this once a suggestion will have already been put in place like an egg in your unconscious… The deed is done: c’est bleu magie! ??? )

“Get cracking!” (Go to work on an egg *)
Norma N Joy Conquest

(* This once used to be the motto of the English Egg Marketing Board in the 1960s.)


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