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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @elitemachinery

Personally, I think Thelema could be described as a union of Love & War in the same way the Sun is a force of life and light yet at the same time eventually devours and kills all that it touches.

This was beautiful and very clear!

For me it was truly the ultimate realization from Thelema. Actually since I stumbled into this discussion a few weeks ago, it was always assumed by myself and perhaps a few others that there must be some clearly written expose on this by Crowley somewhere, but it does appear that this is actually not explicit in his writings, which is interesting because it is almost a central theme of his entire operation.

I had help here, ironically, I was apart of a small thelemic order back then and the direct teaching to me was actually explicitly "war is love, deal with it, resolve it. How does that work? What kind of world do you get with your resolution?" and I treated as if a Zen koan, and it worked, the most powerful of any work I have done actually.

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

... the most powerful of any work I have done actually.

And did it lead to Liberation (from the mind)?


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

And did it lead to Liberation (from the mind)?

That would be putting it far too gently.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva

This is why [TBOL is] so important. It was Thelema in its primordial state (before it got gooped up with/by the demon Crowley.

Or/And The Master Therion?

Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

For a start, had it been written a decade later

But it wasn't. "Had it" is a theoretical, alternative timeline or universe. "What ifs" are speculative.

But nonetheless valid.  Similar speculation could be made around 'what if' Crowley had carried out all the injunctions of AL he was supposed to, like abstructing the Stele, etc.  And apart from helping to pass away the time on Planet Earth, the hypothetical matter of "what if" we were to do x rather than y is how many important inventions and worthwhile discoveries are achieved (& with the lack of it, how they are missed).

Posted by: @shiva

Your number has been added to The Book of Life, The Golden Book, and Saint Peter's list of those who may pass the Gates without a customs check.

I am hono[u]red... I wonder if it might even be worth more than an 'Injection Passport' will in this (coming) day and age?

Posted by: @elitemachinery

the same way the Sun is a force of life and light yet at the same time eventually devours and kills all that it touches.

Not "at the same time": it won't happen for another four or five billion years when as a red giant it expands to well beyond the orbit of Earth and will consume all within it (on a lower analogue, I suppose one could take dying of heatstroke or fatal melanoma as embodying this 'Sekhmet' phase to the individual). 

So can Thelema itself be looked upon as 'fatal' in the same way "at the same time"... and just where does this union between love & war suddenly transit into being death-dealing and all-devouring?

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

For me it was truly the ultimate realization. [...] there must be some clearly written expose on this by Crowley

I'm not clear, some clearly written expose which is the ultimate realization about what aspect of war=love, exactly?

N Joy


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

This is why it's so important. It was Thelema in its primordial state (before it got gooped up with/by the demon Crowley.

This is an interesting insight I would enjoy learning more from. You would not happen to have one of those handy PDF files on this for a brother? Or any form of further elucidation that is at your fingertips?

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I'm not clear, some clearly written expose which is the ultimate realization about what aspect of war=love, exactly?

 

Hmmm, I am somewhat torn here in my answer.

One the one hand, I could explain it with such simple brevity that even a college kid would understand, but on the other hand, this is a community of Thelemites, and all in the ordeal, and to give it away would just not be fair to anyone. Additionally, and this may be too paranoid of me, but my simple explanation may also reveal private information about me down the line which is something I would prefer not happen.

But I dont mind giving hints and clues. 

"what aspect of war=love, exactly?"

Well, the violent, bloody, horrible and inhumane aspects of war specifically. Things like WW2, WW1 and any atrocity you can think of. Absolutely disgusting, I might add. So WAR in that sense. Bloody violence.

And LOVE as in the "loving kindness" of the Buddhists.

So to be clear, that is the WAR that is transmuted into LOVING kindness.

This transmutation happens while keeping all the violent aspects of war and the aspects of loving kindness intact, where a violent act of war serves the purpose of loving kindness.

This is, I believe, the "tantra" to LiberAL.

There are two examples in the 20th century of this manifesting in perfect resolution by two "adepts" (I'm using the word adept more broadly).

The resolution of the two of them is found in non-duality (which itself is a horrible, dualistic phrase that creates more confusion than clarity imho).

But it is also found in Game Theory and non zero sum games.

The dualistic mind has put "war" in the wrong place.

The non dual mind (again, a HORRIBLE word that only creates confusion where there should be simplicity and brevity) puts war in its proper harmony, and lo and behold, loving kindness is the only result.

EDIT: If all of this seems contradictory, not possible, etc etc etc GOOD! After resolution, it is so obvious and simple, even logical and rational.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @swc56
Posted by: @shiva

This is why it's so important. It was Thelema in its primordial state (before it got gooped up with/by the demon Crowley.

This is an interesting insight I would enjoy learning more from. You would not happen to have one of those handy PDF files

No PDF on these topics. To which topic do you refer? Primordial Thelema or the demon Crowley?

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

demon Crowley?

This fella.

Thx in advance 🙂


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

Primordial Thelema or the demon Crowley?

actually BOTH!  Just realized the concept of "primordial Thelema" is entirely foreign to me. Thrice Thx! Appreciate you


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elitemachinery
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Not "at the same time": it won't happen for another four or five billion years when as a red giant it expands to well beyond the orbit of Earth and will consume all within it (on a lower analogue, I suppose one could take dying of heatstroke or fatal melanoma as embodying this 'Sekhmet' phase to the individual). 

So can Thelema itself be looked upon as 'fatal' in the same way "at the same time"... and just where does this union between love & war suddenly transit into being death-dealing and all-devouring?

I don't think my statement was very well crafted. Generally speaking anything taken to an extreme becomes it's opposite. Without the fire and light from hell the heavens would be dark. Light allows us to see. Yet too much light blinds. The sun gives life yet fire can kill. The idea is to balance the more passive love with the more active war (action/will)

A feeling of love or an ephinany is in itself somewhat what passive. The act of expressing it requires will and action.

If you want to feed the world and end world hunger this is a very generous thought. The act of doing it and getting thousands of people to participate in your mission would require massive action equivalent to a declaration of war. In so doing your act of love becomes an act of war. My idea was that war can be redefined and that actions can be realigned to serve a purpose and that love/war could work together. Hence, the Love is heart the War is will.


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @elitemachinery

I don't think my statement was very well crafted. Generally speaking anything taken to an extreme becomes it's opposite. Without the fire and light from hell the heavens would be dark. Light allows us to see. Yet too much light blinds. The sun gives life yet fire can kill. The idea is to balance the more passive love with the more active war (action/will)

Hello @elitemachinery, if you do not mind me elucidating just a wee bit on your very clear and beautiful synopsis. I really liked your poem and song and was also a fan of the band back in the day 🙂

I have found the following joke about Europeans to be a remarkable metaphor for the whole affair.

In Heaven, all of the car mechanics are German, all the lovers are Italian, all the bankers are Swiss, the police English, and the cooks French, voila!

In Hell, all the car mechanics are French, the police are German, the cooks are English, the lovers are Swiss and the bankers are Italian, oy veh!

Note that all the players and objects and roles stay the same, only heaven and hell change their correspondence. Everyone has a role to play in harmony, where one thing becomes an abomination in one circumstance becomes, in the harmonious circumstance, a blissful delight. 

It is like this with the union of War and Love. 

EDIT: Am going to up the ante a bit and also declare that this true and natural state of War is ETERNAL 🙂

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @elitemachinery

My idea was that war can be redefined and that actions can be realigned to serve a purpose and that love/war could work together. Hence, the Love is heart the War is will.

They most truly do work together! Oh sheesh I really wish I could share more here!


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christibrany
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@sangewanchuck56

 

War brings out the best (love) in people and the worst (hate) in people. 

When you view life as a war, you realise that you are likely, to slowly become more loving, 'paradoxically' 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Just realized the concept of "primordial Thelema" is entirely foreign to me.

Well, the primordial part started with Nietzsche and his Abbey of Thelems and Do what thou wilt ... but that was in a novel. Crowley latched on to those core principles and added the structure of the Golden Dawn. WRWB has produced convincing quotes from AC's diaries, showing a predilection towards Horus and other Thelemic concepts as early as 1900.

Even the scribbling of Liber AL did not start "Thelema" (as a mission or a new religion) because AC says he rejected it for several years. By the time Liber 333 came into being, the Thelemic code-words were being inserted. Liber 333 specifically puts any observant reader on notice, and hopefully on guard, in Ch 56 ...

Yet holier than all These to me is LAYLAH, night and death; for
Her do I blaspheme alike the finite 
and the The Infinite.

So wrote not FRATER PERDURABO,
but the 
Imp Crowley in his Name.

For forgery let him suffer Penal Servitude for Seven Years;
or at least let him do Pranayama all the 
way home-home? nay!
but to the house of the 
harlot whom he loveth not.
For it is LAYLAH that 
he loveth.

And yet who knoweth which is Crowley, and which is FRATER PERDURABO?

A thousand pardons. It is not "the demon Crowley," but "the imp Crowley."

In this Chapter, and many other, we see the imp Crowley, broken-heartedly  dashing off witticisms, Chapter after Chapter, about the girl who got away, and his sexual obsessions continue right on into his philosophy of Thelema ... that are expressed most often in his later Commentaries on AL.

So, you see, it is our job to decipher (for ourselves) which is the philosophy of Thelema, and which is Crowley's neurosis.


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

So, you see, it is our job to decipher (for ourselves) which is the philosophy of Thelema, and which is Crowley's neurosis.

oh okay I thought you were referring to something other than just the ordeal of the demon crowley. i concur! thx for the summary of the primordial Thelema.

If that was primordial thelema I wonder what thelema is now? 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Just realized the concept of "primordial Thelema" is entirely foreign to me.

I've never actually come across this designation before either - can anyone tell me if it's a well-known classification, who labelled it that first and who else are the principal proclaimers of the concept/school? 

And if there is a pdf I'd very much like to see one as well (Thx too!) and if not, where exactly did the idea there is meant to be one come from?

Posted by: @shiva

Well, the primordial part started with Nietzsche and his Abbey of Thelems and Do what thou wilt ... but that was in a novel.

Did Nietzsche come up with an Abbey of Thelema as well?  I've never come across that in his works to my knowledge (unless I've completely forgotten it) - are you sure you don't mean Rabelais?

Z Joy


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @christibrany

War brings out the best (love) in people and the worst (hate) in people.

I loved what you wrote yet this line pops a bit more than the others. I suppose the same could be said about the NFL or FIFA too lol.

There is no "hate" in the union of Love and War, however, only love. Yet war itself remains unchanged because there never was any "hate" there to begin with, only delusion and confusion of separation (duality).

This is a really deep deep unconscious and unresolved contradiction in our psyches, it can play out in all of our interactions with others (consider; "war" is over territory. Territory protects resources for survival).

The tricky part is keeping the "force and fire" of war, which is the destructive element, in harmony with the unifying and holistic "love" nurturing principle in a manner that is complete, elegant, intuitive, logical, rational, and predictive while maintaining all the characteristics of what is referred to as "non-duality".

Violence is maintained in the union, but it is no longer bloody violence but illuminating violence.

Duality or Non-Duality? Choose ye well!

So many ideas, so much glorious death!

The union of War and Love is not interested in giving anyone personal revelation on the matter either. It is utterly impossible to resolve this deep contradiction in a manner where only the seeker benefits. If any practitioner seeks to discover this personal illumination, I promise you there is no genuine occult tradition in the world that will deliver it to you.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to be utterly theatrical and over the top 🙂

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I've never actually come across this designation before either - can anyone tell me if it's a well-known classification, who labelled it that first and who else are the principal proclaimers of the concept/school? 

Have been thinking more about this as well. I do have a view and I wonder if this is somewhat similar to Shiva's viewpoint. Putting it in terms of western philosophy, the primordial Thelema could simply be a stage in the historical dialectic in the Hegelian, not Marxist, sense.

Although it is my personal belief at the moment that "primordial Thelema" are Tibetan termas leaking the Dharma into the west and western adepts are just picking up the signal through their practice.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I wonder what thelema is now? 

Fragmented, just like any other movement. Organized Religion has sprung up, and most of us heretics here call that effort The Black Lodge. Free-wheeling "Thelemites" get a thread devoted to their antics (usually musicians).

The "organized" part is due to AC's efforts in "esoteric freemasonry," which includes a model for a new society. He rejected his model in a footnote to his last letter to Germer. Yet it lives on.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I've never actually come across this designation before either

That's probably because I coined it just a few posts earlier. I am referring to that time-span wherein AC had pieces to his jigsaw puzzle but had not yet put all the pieces together. As a rough guess, without anal research (I am not a proctologist), I would tentatively cite 1900 to 1914. The assembled puzzle was probably released in The Blue Equinox (1919), along with a whole section (at least half the book) devoted to the new "Profess House" system, which failed (and was denounced by AC in his last Germer letter - 1947).

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

are you sure you don't mean Rabelais?

Probably. I am hopelessly lost in anything pre-Crowley, except for Templar history and its continuation after the DeMolay incineration. It is easy for me to confuse the madmen of the earlier centuries. Anyway, I think Nietzsche went "mad" (lost his mind) at age 41(?) I don't know what happened to Rabelais, or at what age.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

So many ideas

The ultimate objective of any form of the spiritual path is to Stop the Mind. Various deviations may cloud this primary concept.

image
Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

The tricky part is keeping the "force and fire" of war, which is the destructive element, in harmony with the unifying and holistic "love" nurturing principle in a manner that is complete, elegant, intuitive, logical, rational, and predictive while maintaining all the characteristics of what is referred to as "non-duality".

Yes, this is the basic principle of Aikido, the martial arts that defeats aggressors without hurting them. It is traditional to be smiling as you dump the opponent(s).

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Thelema could simply be a stage in the historical dialectic in the Hegelian, not Marxist, sense.

This is what I meant by coining the term (a historical stage). I know nothis about dielectrics, except in electronics, and I've never read a word of Marx or Hegel. I am not a philosopher, and I have no appreciation of philosophy which has been defined for us (by AC) as "the enemy of Magick."

 

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

Fragmented, just like any other movement. Organized Religion has sprung up, and most of us heretics here call that effort The Black Lodge. Free-wheeling "Thelemites" get a thread devoted to their antics (usually musicians).

It is a bit odd, eh? The lastest problem around actually changing the letter in Liber AL (the whole fill me or kill me controversy) was the end of Thelema proper for me.

Posted by: @shiva

The ultimate objective of any form of the spiritual path is to Stop the Mind. Various deviations may cloud this primary concept.

Well, then you want to be on the look out for those ideas about stopping the mind!

And it is really challenging to stop the mind whilst attempting to build global resolution and solve problems. For that, we need to work with our ideas (spirits) and realize that this whole concept of war is their fault in the first place!

Posted by: @shiva

Yes, this is the basic principle of Aikido, the martial arts that defeats aggressors without hurting them. It is traditional to be smiling as you dump the opponent(s).

 

I was really hoping you would bring that up! It goes far far far deeper than that in Aikido as you are more than likely aware.

O'Sensei was the adept I was referencing in my earlier post. 

There was one other tho...

Posted by: @shiva

I am not a philosopher, and I have no appreciation of philosophy which has been defined for us (by AC) as "the enemy of Magick."

Unite with thine art, so that all disappear 🙂


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

fill me or kill me controversy) was the end of Thelema proper for me.

By "Thelema proper" I suspect you sync with my "Organized Religion" concept.

Since Thelema is devoted to the individual, I guess we'll see a different interpretation of Thelema with each extrovert who tries to promulgate/explain it.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

And it is really challenging to stop the mind whilst attempting to build global resolution and solve problems.

Yes, my books are filled with techniques, along with philosophies about how it's "impossible" to stop the mind. These are true. The best we can do is stop it for just a little bit on the timepiece. But that's all that is required. Permanent stoppage is accomplished by some outside forces, if we are to believe U.G.

As far as "global resolution and solve problems," our hero J.C. said, "Render this stuff unto Caesar."

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I was really hoping you would bring that up! It goes far far far deeper than that in Aikido as you are more than likely aware

It is merely dynamic samadhi (once it becomes intuitive). In the beginning, the student learns techniques, not "oneness with the assailants." This is why idiots decry Aikido, saying, "It doesn't work in a real fight," and it doesn't ... in the beginning. If one wants self-defense with minimal training, I would suggest Karatedo. Aikido is the highest form of the Japanese Martial Arts, in terms of spiritual insight ... give it 10 years and it might work effortlessly for self-preservation, but 20 is more likely.

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

Since Thelema is devoted to the individual, I guess we'll see a different interpretation of Thelema with each extrovert who tries to promulgate/explain it.

100%

Posted by: @shiva

As far as "global resolution and solve problems," our hero J.C. said, "Render this stuff unto Caesar."

But didn't Caeser kinda ultimately suck at that? If we are talking about the literal resolution of war and love as an advancement in society seriously at some point in history (which itself is a theme in Liber AL) why would we consider going retro?

Posted by: @shiva

Aikido is the highest form of the Japanese Martial Arts, in terms of spiritual insight ... give it 10 years and it might work effortlessly for self-preservation, but 20 is more likely.

I've been an aikidoka for a little more than 20 years, so you may be are too generous with me here 🙂

Aikido contains a complete tantra and system of psychology that trains an individual in their bodies the transmutation of war into love.

The part that is more psychological, that is, understanding the nature of conflict itself, can produce insights and benefits in the more real conflict, non physical but still violent psychological social dynamics we function in society, in the home, family, neighborhood and office within the first 18 months of training that can be profound, speaking from experience.

Applying it in the streets, sure that requires a different kind of training but I'm not sure that is where this art is useful if someone is worried about street fighting. I hope I never have to find that out either. 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

I am not a philosopher, and I have no appreciation of philosophy which has been defined for us (by AC) as "the enemy of Magick."

This comment sat with me over the course of the day after I responded. I do remember him saying that, but surely you do not mean to suggest that philosophy, as in "the study of Sophia, Wisdom", which includes everything from buddhism to taoism to all of Western philosophy from Socrates to Plato to Decartes, Marx and Popper, do you?

I am pretty sure when he wrote that, the intention was specifically "philosophical materialism" which is the worldview of the scientific orthodoxy like Richard Dawkins and the like. It also dominates academia worldwide, this view. That particular brand of philosophy was also emerging in a quite domineering way at that time in Crowley's history (Darwin, Marx). It denies that consciousness exists beyond the brain. That fellow Los in some Thelemic circles also holds that view.

So to me Crowley was saying that Magick (tantra) is incompatible with materialism. Which it is.

Yes?

EDIT: Hegel's "Spirit of history" is highly compatible with Thelema and most of Occult thinking. Its actually pretty alchemical, so is Wittgenstein just to name a few. It gets even spookier when we cross into western maths which branch into and out of western philosophy, like Godel.

Terence Mckenna always loved to remind everyone that the father of modern western rational thought, Rene Decartes', had the discovery that the "mastery of nature was through number and measure" (materialism) came to him through a dream, told to him by an angel.

Apologies, this got me to stand on a box. Oye!


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

If we are talking about the literal resolution of war and love as an advancement in society seriously at some point in history (which itself is a theme in Liber AL) why would we consider going retro?

Not retro. Out. Get Out!

Now, some people will be built along the lines of extensive antics in the political, religious, or some other field. As Heaven and the Angels know, I did a bit of that at a lower sublevel of the higher material level (congressmen, testifying before the State legislature, political intrigue. I associated with others who played the game harder than myself. But it was not my style.

And I went on to fulfill my chosen task. I think it's a matter of age, but only in some respects. I hold no disdain for those who actively pursue their goal in the muddy arenas of external reality (unless they sell out and are absorbed into the Borg).

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I've been an aikidoka for a little more than 20 years, so you may be are too generous with me here

I have years numbered from 1963. It was only around 2006 that the shift from technique to ki started to take place. I found myself the sensei, and there was nobody above me (they had died). My decades of training had been in Karate, and my continual training in Aikido had been sporadic (on and off), so it took me 40 years to begin to get in the groove. My 10 or 20 year figures were based on a person who trained three times a week continuously through those years.

In any individual case, such as yourself, it (my estimation) would be bracketed by your grade and how many times per week you trained and how many annums. But the final factor would be, when you were driving through New mexico and you stopped in, whether or not I could "tag" you (not hit, just touch) with some Karate punch or another. We won't consider kicking, once my strongest point, because delivering a really good kick would probably find my on my butt (or worse) by my own efforts.

Alas! The pandemic has closed my dojo and there are signs that I may not teach again. But I'm willing to start in again tomorrow if they find a spray for the bugs.

Anyway, the years are just a broad generality. The same figures apply to the spiritual path. The people that become prominent in the art are "naturally good." That is, right from the beginning they instinctively demonstrate competence.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

surely you do not mean to suggest that philosophy, as in ... etc, etc ... do you?

Essentially, no. AC's remark on philosophy was clever, but how can we believe him, the great philosopher who spewed out volumes of philosophy. Philosophy is actually required at Netzach and Chesed. Chesed is basically all philosophy, in a way. At Netzach (the Philosophus), the only problem is that many people are busy philosophizing (running their brain and mouth) while ignoring the real task, which is more properly described as psychology (the Psycholophus). How can it be avoided? It's built into the curriculum.

When I say such things (demeaning philosophy) I am merely dealing cards similar to those found in The Book of Lies, which will (for the moment) keep us on-topic.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I am pretty sure when he wrote that, the intention was specifically "philosophical materialism"

Possibly. Probably. When I say such things, the intention is to keep banging the drum about anything in the linear mind is insufficient to finish the Path. But that linear mind has to be used in building the foundation. So I would never discourage a 7=4 from expressing his or her philosophy - it's the task of the grade.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Yes?

How should I know? I'm not a philosopher.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Terence Mckenna always loved to remind everyone that the father of modern western rational thought, Rene Decartes

Ah, after three or five name-droppings of people I know nothing about, you have mentioned two that I recognize. My instructor in the Philosophy of Oriental Medicine course, the former M.D. Dean of the Saigon Medical School when the Chinese came in, said the same thing about Descartes. I've never read him.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

pologies, this got me to stand on a box. Oye!

No need for apologies. I have my own box.

image

But I'm not the one to discuss philosophy with. I have never attended a philosophy course, except for Oriental Med (they taught some far-out stuff of a rather practical nature), nor have I read Hegel, Marx, Descartes, etc. I confess to reading some Plato, but I got nothing out of it.


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