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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @elitemachinery

Personally, I think Thelema could be described as a union of Love & War in the same way the Sun is a force of life and light yet at the same time eventually devours and kills all that it touches.

This was beautiful and very clear!

For me it was truly the ultimate realization from Thelema. Actually since I stumbled into this discussion a few weeks ago, it was always assumed by myself and perhaps a few others that there must be some clearly written expose on this by Crowley somewhere, but it does appear that this is actually not explicit in his writings, which is interesting because it is almost a central theme of his entire operation.

I had help here, ironically, I was apart of a small thelemic order back then and the direct teaching to me was actually explicitly "war is love, deal with it, resolve it. How does that work? What kind of world do you get with your resolution?" and I treated as if a Zen koan, and it worked, the most powerful of any work I have done actually.

 

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

... the most powerful of any work I have done actually.

And did it lead to Liberation (from the mind)?


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

And did it lead to Liberation (from the mind)?

That would be putting it far too gently.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva

This is why [TBOL is] so important. It was Thelema in its primordial state (before it got gooped up with/by the demon Crowley.

Or/And The Master Therion?

Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

For a start, had it been written a decade later

But it wasn't. "Had it" is a theoretical, alternative timeline or universe. "What ifs" are speculative.

But nonetheless valid.  Similar speculation could be made around 'what if' Crowley had carried out all the injunctions of AL he was supposed to, like abstructing the Stele, etc.  And apart from helping to pass away the time on Planet Earth, the hypothetical matter of "what if" we were to do x rather than y is how many important inventions and worthwhile discoveries are achieved (& with the lack of it, how they are missed).

Posted by: @shiva

Your number has been added to The Book of Life, The Golden Book, and Saint Peter's list of those who may pass the Gates without a customs check.

I am hono[u]red... I wonder if it might even be worth more than an 'Injection Passport' will in this (coming) day and age?

Posted by: @elitemachinery

the same way the Sun is a force of life and light yet at the same time eventually devours and kills all that it touches.

Not "at the same time": it won't happen for another four or five billion years when as a red giant it expands to well beyond the orbit of Earth and will consume all within it (on a lower analogue, I suppose one could take dying of heatstroke or fatal melanoma as embodying this 'Sekhmet' phase to the individual). 

So can Thelema itself be looked upon as 'fatal' in the same way "at the same time"... and just where does this union between love & war suddenly transit into being death-dealing and all-devouring?

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

For me it was truly the ultimate realization. [...] there must be some clearly written expose on this by Crowley

I'm not clear, some clearly written expose which is the ultimate realization about what aspect of war=love, exactly?

N Joy


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

This is why it's so important. It was Thelema in its primordial state (before it got gooped up with/by the demon Crowley.

This is an interesting insight I would enjoy learning more from. You would not happen to have one of those handy PDF files on this for a brother? Or any form of further elucidation that is at your fingertips?

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I'm not clear, some clearly written expose which is the ultimate realization about what aspect of war=love, exactly?

 

Hmmm, I am somewhat torn here in my answer.

One the one hand, I could explain it with such simple brevity that even a college kid would understand, but on the other hand, this is a community of Thelemites, and all in the ordeal, and to give it away would just not be fair to anyone. Additionally, and this may be too paranoid of me, but my simple explanation may also reveal private information about me down the line which is something I would prefer not happen.

But I dont mind giving hints and clues. 

"what aspect of war=love, exactly?"

Well, the violent, bloody, horrible and inhumane aspects of war specifically. Things like WW2, WW1 and any atrocity you can think of. Absolutely disgusting, I might add. So WAR in that sense. Bloody violence.

And LOVE as in the "loving kindness" of the Buddhists.

So to be clear, that is the WAR that is transmuted into LOVING kindness.

This transmutation happens while keeping all the violent aspects of war and the aspects of loving kindness intact, where a violent act of war serves the purpose of loving kindness.

This is, I believe, the "tantra" to LiberAL.

There are two examples in the 20th century of this manifesting in perfect resolution by two "adepts" (I'm using the word adept more broadly).

The resolution of the two of them is found in non-duality (which itself is a horrible, dualistic phrase that creates more confusion than clarity imho).

But it is also found in Game Theory and non zero sum games.

The dualistic mind has put "war" in the wrong place.

The non dual mind (again, a HORRIBLE word that only creates confusion where there should be simplicity and brevity) puts war in its proper harmony, and lo and behold, loving kindness is the only result.

EDIT: If all of this seems contradictory, not possible, etc etc etc GOOD! After resolution, it is so obvious and simple, even logical and rational.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @swc56
Posted by: @shiva

This is why it's so important. It was Thelema in its primordial state (before it got gooped up with/by the demon Crowley.

This is an interesting insight I would enjoy learning more from. You would not happen to have one of those handy PDF files

No PDF on these topics. To which topic do you refer? Primordial Thelema or the demon Crowley?

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

demon Crowley?

This fella.

Thx in advance 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Primordial Thelema or the demon Crowley?

actually BOTH!  Just realized the concept of "primordial Thelema" is entirely foreign to me. Thrice Thx! Appreciate you

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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elitemachinery
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Not "at the same time": it won't happen for another four or five billion years when as a red giant it expands to well beyond the orbit of Earth and will consume all within it (on a lower analogue, I suppose one could take dying of heatstroke or fatal melanoma as embodying this 'Sekhmet' phase to the individual). 

So can Thelema itself be looked upon as 'fatal' in the same way "at the same time"... and just where does this union between love & war suddenly transit into being death-dealing and all-devouring?

I don't think my statement was very well crafted. Generally speaking anything taken to an extreme becomes it's opposite. Without the fire and light from hell the heavens would be dark. Light allows us to see. Yet too much light blinds. The sun gives life yet fire can kill. The idea is to balance the more passive love with the more active war (action/will)

A feeling of love or an ephinany is in itself somewhat what passive. The act of expressing it requires will and action.

If you want to feed the world and end world hunger this is a very generous thought. The act of doing it and getting thousands of people to participate in your mission would require massive action equivalent to a declaration of war. In so doing your act of love becomes an act of war. My idea was that war can be redefined and that actions can be realigned to serve a purpose and that love/war could work together. Hence, the Love is heart the War is will.


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @elitemachinery

I don't think my statement was very well crafted. Generally speaking anything taken to an extreme becomes it's opposite. Without the fire and light from hell the heavens would be dark. Light allows us to see. Yet too much light blinds. The sun gives life yet fire can kill. The idea is to balance the more passive love with the more active war (action/will)

Hello @elitemachinery, if you do not mind me elucidating just a wee bit on your very clear and beautiful synopsis. I really liked your poem and song and was also a fan of the band back in the day 🙂

I have found the following joke about Europeans to be a remarkable metaphor for the whole affair.

In Heaven, all of the car mechanics are German, all the lovers are Italian, all the bankers are Swiss, the police English, and the cooks French, voila!

In Hell, all the car mechanics are French, the police are German, the cooks are English, the lovers are Swiss and the bankers are Italian, oy veh!

Note that all the players and objects and roles stay the same, only heaven and hell change their correspondence. Everyone has a role to play in harmony, where one thing becomes an abomination in one circumstance becomes, in the harmonious circumstance, a blissful delight. 

It is like this with the union of War and Love. 

EDIT: Am going to up the ante a bit and also declare that this true and natural state of War is ETERNAL 🙂

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @elitemachinery

My idea was that war can be redefined and that actions can be realigned to serve a purpose and that love/war could work together. Hence, the Love is heart the War is will.

They most truly do work together! Oh sheesh I really wish I could share more here!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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christibrany
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@sangewanchuck56

 

War brings out the best (love) in people and the worst (hate) in people. 

When you view life as a war, you realise that you are likely, to slowly become more loving, 'paradoxically' 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Just realized the concept of "primordial Thelema" is entirely foreign to me.

Well, the primordial part started with Nietzsche and his Abbey of Thelems and Do what thou wilt ... but that was in a novel. Crowley latched on to those core principles and added the structure of the Golden Dawn. WRWB has produced convincing quotes from AC's diaries, showing a predilection towards Horus and other Thelemic concepts as early as 1900.

Even the scribbling of Liber AL did not start "Thelema" (as a mission or a new religion) because AC says he rejected it for several years. By the time Liber 333 came into being, the Thelemic code-words were being inserted. Liber 333 specifically puts any observant reader on notice, and hopefully on guard, in Ch 56 ...

Yet holier than all These to me is LAYLAH, night and death; for
Her do I blaspheme alike the finite 
and the The Infinite.

So wrote not FRATER PERDURABO,
but the 
Imp Crowley in his Name.

For forgery let him suffer Penal Servitude for Seven Years;
or at least let him do Pranayama all the 
way home-home? nay!
but to the house of the 
harlot whom he loveth not.
For it is LAYLAH that 
he loveth.

And yet who knoweth which is Crowley, and which is FRATER PERDURABO?

A thousand pardons. It is not "the demon Crowley," but "the imp Crowley."

In this Chapter, and many other, we see the imp Crowley, broken-heartedly  dashing off witticisms, Chapter after Chapter, about the girl who got away, and his sexual obsessions continue right on into his philosophy of Thelema ... that are expressed most often in his later Commentaries on AL.

So, you see, it is our job to decipher (for ourselves) which is the philosophy of Thelema, and which is Crowley's neurosis.


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

So, you see, it is our job to decipher (for ourselves) which is the philosophy of Thelema, and which is Crowley's neurosis.

oh okay I thought you were referring to something other than just the ordeal of the demon crowley. i concur! thx for the summary of the primordial Thelema.

If that was primordial thelema I wonder what thelema is now? 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Just realized the concept of "primordial Thelema" is entirely foreign to me.

I've never actually come across this designation before either - can anyone tell me if it's a well-known classification, who labelled it that first and who else are the principal proclaimers of the concept/school? 

And if there is a pdf I'd very much like to see one as well (Thx too!) and if not, where exactly did the idea there is meant to be one come from?

Posted by: @shiva

Well, the primordial part started with Nietzsche and his Abbey of Thelems and Do what thou wilt ... but that was in a novel.

Did Nietzsche come up with an Abbey of Thelema as well?  I've never come across that in his works to my knowledge (unless I've completely forgotten it) - are you sure you don't mean Rabelais?

Z Joy


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @christibrany

War brings out the best (love) in people and the worst (hate) in people.

I loved what you wrote yet this line pops a bit more than the others. I suppose the same could be said about the NFL or FIFA too lol.

There is no "hate" in the union of Love and War, however, only love. Yet war itself remains unchanged because there never was any "hate" there to begin with, only delusion and confusion of separation (duality).

This is a really deep deep unconscious and unresolved contradiction in our psyches, it can play out in all of our interactions with others (consider; "war" is over territory. Territory protects resources for survival).

The tricky part is keeping the "force and fire" of war, which is the destructive element, in harmony with the unifying and holistic "love" nurturing principle in a manner that is complete, elegant, intuitive, logical, rational, and predictive while maintaining all the characteristics of what is referred to as "non-duality".

Violence is maintained in the union, but it is no longer bloody violence but illuminating violence.

Duality or Non-Duality? Choose ye well!

So many ideas, so much glorious death!

The union of War and Love is not interested in giving anyone personal revelation on the matter either. It is utterly impossible to resolve this deep contradiction in a manner where only the seeker benefits. If any practitioner seeks to discover this personal illumination, I promise you there is no genuine occult tradition in the world that will deliver it to you.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to be utterly theatrical and over the top 🙂

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I've never actually come across this designation before either - can anyone tell me if it's a well-known classification, who labelled it that first and who else are the principal proclaimers of the concept/school? 

Have been thinking more about this as well. I do have a view and I wonder if this is somewhat similar to Shiva's viewpoint. Putting it in terms of western philosophy, the primordial Thelema could simply be a stage in the historical dialectic in the Hegelian, not Marxist, sense.

Although it is my personal belief at the moment that "primordial Thelema" are Tibetan termas leaking the Dharma into the west and western adepts are just picking up the signal through their practice.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I wonder what thelema is now? 

Fragmented, just like any other movement. Organized Religion has sprung up, and most of us heretics here call that effort The Black Lodge. Free-wheeling "Thelemites" get a thread devoted to their antics (usually musicians).

The "organized" part is due to AC's efforts in "esoteric freemasonry," which includes a model for a new society. He rejected his model in a footnote to his last letter to Germer. Yet it lives on.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I've never actually come across this designation before either

That's probably because I coined it just a few posts earlier. I am referring to that time-span wherein AC had pieces to his jigsaw puzzle but had not yet put all the pieces together. As a rough guess, without anal research (I am not a proctologist), I would tentatively cite 1900 to 1914. The assembled puzzle was probably released in The Blue Equinox (1919), along with a whole section (at least half the book) devoted to the new "Profess House" system, which failed (and was denounced by AC in his last Germer letter - 1947).

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

are you sure you don't mean Rabelais?

Probably. I am hopelessly lost in anything pre-Crowley, except for Templar history and its continuation after the DeMolay incineration. It is easy for me to confuse the madmen of the earlier centuries. Anyway, I think Nietzsche went "mad" (lost his mind) at age 41(?) I don't know what happened to Rabelais, or at what age.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

So many ideas

The ultimate objective of any form of the spiritual path is to Stop the Mind. Various deviations may cloud this primary concept.

image
Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

The tricky part is keeping the "force and fire" of war, which is the destructive element, in harmony with the unifying and holistic "love" nurturing principle in a manner that is complete, elegant, intuitive, logical, rational, and predictive while maintaining all the characteristics of what is referred to as "non-duality".

Yes, this is the basic principle of Aikido, the martial arts that defeats aggressors without hurting them. It is traditional to be smiling as you dump the opponent(s).

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Thelema could simply be a stage in the historical dialectic in the Hegelian, not Marxist, sense.

This is what I meant by coining the term (a historical stage). I know nothis about dielectrics, except in electronics, and I've never read a word of Marx or Hegel. I am not a philosopher, and I have no appreciation of philosophy which has been defined for us (by AC) as "the enemy of Magick."

 

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Fragmented, just like any other movement. Organized Religion has sprung up, and most of us heretics here call that effort The Black Lodge. Free-wheeling "Thelemites" get a thread devoted to their antics (usually musicians).

It is a bit odd, eh? The lastest problem around actually changing the letter in Liber AL (the whole fill me or kill me controversy) was the end of Thelema proper for me.

Posted by: @shiva

The ultimate objective of any form of the spiritual path is to Stop the Mind. Various deviations may cloud this primary concept.

Well, then you want to be on the look out for those ideas about stopping the mind!

And it is really challenging to stop the mind whilst attempting to build global resolution and solve problems. For that, we need to work with our ideas (spirits) and realize that this whole concept of war is their fault in the first place!

Posted by: @shiva

Yes, this is the basic principle of Aikido, the martial arts that defeats aggressors without hurting them. It is traditional to be smiling as you dump the opponent(s).

 

I was really hoping you would bring that up! It goes far far far deeper than that in Aikido as you are more than likely aware.

O'Sensei was the adept I was referencing in my earlier post. 

There was one other tho...

Posted by: @shiva

I am not a philosopher, and I have no appreciation of philosophy which has been defined for us (by AC) as "the enemy of Magick."

Unite with thine art, so that all disappear 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

fill me or kill me controversy) was the end of Thelema proper for me.

By "Thelema proper" I suspect you sync with my "Organized Religion" concept.

Since Thelema is devoted to the individual, I guess we'll see a different interpretation of Thelema with each extrovert who tries to promulgate/explain it.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

And it is really challenging to stop the mind whilst attempting to build global resolution and solve problems.

Yes, my books are filled with techniques, along with philosophies about how it's "impossible" to stop the mind. These are true. The best we can do is stop it for just a little bit on the timepiece. But that's all that is required. Permanent stoppage is accomplished by some outside forces, if we are to believe U.G.

As far as "global resolution and solve problems," our hero J.C. said, "Render this stuff unto Caesar."

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I was really hoping you would bring that up! It goes far far far deeper than that in Aikido as you are more than likely aware

It is merely dynamic samadhi (once it becomes intuitive). In the beginning, the student learns techniques, not "oneness with the assailants." This is why idiots decry Aikido, saying, "It doesn't work in a real fight," and it doesn't ... in the beginning. If one wants self-defense with minimal training, I would suggest Karatedo. Aikido is the highest form of the Japanese Martial Arts, in terms of spiritual insight ... give it 10 years and it might work effortlessly for self-preservation, but 20 is more likely.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Since Thelema is devoted to the individual, I guess we'll see a different interpretation of Thelema with each extrovert who tries to promulgate/explain it.

100%

Posted by: @shiva

As far as "global resolution and solve problems," our hero J.C. said, "Render this stuff unto Caesar."

But didn't Caeser kinda ultimately suck at that? If we are talking about the literal resolution of war and love as an advancement in society seriously at some point in history (which itself is a theme in Liber AL) why would we consider going retro?

Posted by: @shiva

Aikido is the highest form of the Japanese Martial Arts, in terms of spiritual insight ... give it 10 years and it might work effortlessly for self-preservation, but 20 is more likely.

I've been an aikidoka for a little more than 20 years, so you may be are too generous with me here 🙂

Aikido contains a complete tantra and system of psychology that trains an individual in their bodies the transmutation of war into love.

The part that is more psychological, that is, understanding the nature of conflict itself, can produce insights and benefits in the more real conflict, non physical but still violent psychological social dynamics we function in society, in the home, family, neighborhood and office within the first 18 months of training that can be profound, speaking from experience.

Applying it in the streets, sure that requires a different kind of training but I'm not sure that is where this art is useful if someone is worried about street fighting. I hope I never have to find that out either. 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

I am not a philosopher, and I have no appreciation of philosophy which has been defined for us (by AC) as "the enemy of Magick."

This comment sat with me over the course of the day after I responded. I do remember him saying that, but surely you do not mean to suggest that philosophy, as in "the study of Sophia, Wisdom", which includes everything from buddhism to taoism to all of Western philosophy from Socrates to Plato to Decartes, Marx and Popper, do you?

I am pretty sure when he wrote that, the intention was specifically "philosophical materialism" which is the worldview of the scientific orthodoxy like Richard Dawkins and the like. It also dominates academia worldwide, this view. That particular brand of philosophy was also emerging in a quite domineering way at that time in Crowley's history (Darwin, Marx). It denies that consciousness exists beyond the brain. That fellow Los in some Thelemic circles also holds that view.

So to me Crowley was saying that Magick (tantra) is incompatible with materialism. Which it is.

Yes?

EDIT: Hegel's "Spirit of history" is highly compatible with Thelema and most of Occult thinking. Its actually pretty alchemical, so is Wittgenstein just to name a few. It gets even spookier when we cross into western maths which branch into and out of western philosophy, like Godel.

Terence Mckenna always loved to remind everyone that the father of modern western rational thought, Rene Decartes', had the discovery that the "mastery of nature was through number and measure" (materialism) came to him through a dream, told to him by an angel.

Apologies, this got me to stand on a box. Oye!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

If we are talking about the literal resolution of war and love as an advancement in society seriously at some point in history (which itself is a theme in Liber AL) why would we consider going retro?

Not retro. Out. Get Out!

Now, some people will be built along the lines of extensive antics in the political, religious, or some other field. As Heaven and the Angels know, I did a bit of that at a lower sublevel of the higher material level (congressmen, testifying before the State legislature, political intrigue. I associated with others who played the game harder than myself. But it was not my style.

And I went on to fulfill my chosen task. I think it's a matter of age, but only in some respects. I hold no disdain for those who actively pursue their goal in the muddy arenas of external reality (unless they sell out and are absorbed into the Borg).

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I've been an aikidoka for a little more than 20 years, so you may be are too generous with me here

I have years numbered from 1963. It was only around 2006 that the shift from technique to ki started to take place. I found myself the sensei, and there was nobody above me (they had died). My decades of training had been in Karate, and my continual training in Aikido had been sporadic (on and off), so it took me 40 years to begin to get in the groove. My 10 or 20 year figures were based on a person who trained three times a week continuously through those years.

In any individual case, such as yourself, it (my estimation) would be bracketed by your grade and how many times per week you trained and how many annums. But the final factor would be, when you were driving through New mexico and you stopped in, whether or not I could "tag" you (not hit, just touch) with some Karate punch or another. We won't consider kicking, once my strongest point, because delivering a really good kick would probably find my on my butt (or worse) by my own efforts.

Alas! The pandemic has closed my dojo and there are signs that I may not teach again. But I'm willing to start in again tomorrow if they find a spray for the bugs.

Anyway, the years are just a broad generality. The same figures apply to the spiritual path. The people that become prominent in the art are "naturally good." That is, right from the beginning they instinctively demonstrate competence.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

surely you do not mean to suggest that philosophy, as in ... etc, etc ... do you?

Essentially, no. AC's remark on philosophy was clever, but how can we believe him, the great philosopher who spewed out volumes of philosophy. Philosophy is actually required at Netzach and Chesed. Chesed is basically all philosophy, in a way. At Netzach (the Philosophus), the only problem is that many people are busy philosophizing (running their brain and mouth) while ignoring the real task, which is more properly described as psychology (the Psycholophus). How can it be avoided? It's built into the curriculum.

When I say such things (demeaning philosophy) I am merely dealing cards similar to those found in The Book of Lies, which will (for the moment) keep us on-topic.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I am pretty sure when he wrote that, the intention was specifically "philosophical materialism"

Possibly. Probably. When I say such things, the intention is to keep banging the drum about anything in the linear mind is insufficient to finish the Path. But that linear mind has to be used in building the foundation. So I would never discourage a 7=4 from expressing his or her philosophy - it's the task of the grade.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Yes?

How should I know? I'm not a philosopher.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Terence Mckenna always loved to remind everyone that the father of modern western rational thought, Rene Decartes

Ah, after three or five name-droppings of people I know nothing about, you have mentioned two that I recognize. My instructor in the Philosophy of Oriental Medicine course, the former M.D. Dean of the Saigon Medical School when the Chinese came in, said the same thing about Descartes. I've never read him.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

pologies, this got me to stand on a box. Oye!

No need for apologies. I have my own box.

image

But I'm not the one to discuss philosophy with. I have never attended a philosophy course, except for Oriental Med (they taught some far-out stuff of a rather practical nature), nor have I read Hegel, Marx, Descartes, etc. I confess to reading some Plato, but I got nothing out of it.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @shiva

 

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I am pretty sure when he wrote that, the intention was specifically "philosophical materialism"

Possibly. Probably. When I say such things, the intention is to keep banging the drum about anything in the linear mind is insufficient to finish the Path.

The Angels came to me, blowing a trumpet that said, "Look up the rest of AC's comment - something about it not mattering."

This is just exactly what I wanted to do, look up some obsure reference that I can't remember in toto because it wasn't meaningful to me the first, second, or third time, especially when it's dog-feeding time and I have two ferocious, hungry dogs at hand, one of which is an alarm dog (he barks continuously when his dog clock says "dinner" and it won't stop 'til he's fed).

[break]

' It would be useless to insist on such a point
were it not for the fact that
many people confuse Philosophy with Magick.
Philosophy is the enemy of Magick.
Philosophy assures us that after all nothing matters,
and that “che sara sara.” '

- Book 4, Part 2

Personally, I didn't know about Philosophy assuring anyone that "nothing matters."

I suppose the folks who insist that life is all a dream, an illusion, might buy into nothing mattering.

I find that I must render and herewith deliver this blasphemy unto the Philosorums of LAShTAL for further interpretation.


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Sanguine Chuck
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Why did it take me so long to find this community? 

Posted by: @shiva

Not retro. Out. Get Out!

Now, some people will be built along the lines of extensive antics in the political, religious, or some other field. As Heaven and the Angels know, I did a bit of that at a lower sublevel of the higher material level (congressmen, testifying before the State legislature, political intrigue. I associated with others who played the game harder than myself. But it was not my style.

And I went on to fulfill my chosen task. I think it's a matter of age, but only in some respects. I hold no disdain for those who actively pursue their goal in the muddy arenas of external reality (unless they sell out and are absorbed into the Borg).

Oh okay well I've somewhat miscommunicated then, I was not suggesting you as an individual per se' but "we" as a collective of...how should I put this..."inspired designers" who understand the true nature of occult work is the acquisition of genius for the betterment of both the self/individual but more importantly the other. i.e. making the world better– building what AC poetically called "The Tabernacle of the Holy Ghost".

This does mean that civilization, even the boring retro no longer working parts,  are the matriculation of occult secrets through history that are first seeded into the underground of society and then reemerge through artists, designers, scientists, writers, and..ahem..philosophers and county clerks too.

creating or influencing any form of enlightened governance, local or otherwise, apart of the Great Work. Surely society cannot progress if all the enlightened adepts drop out of it, no? 

...there are also of my friends who be hermits. Now think not to find them in the forest or on the mountain; but in beds of purple,... Ye shall see them at rule, at victorious armies, at all the joy; and there shall be in them a joy a million times greater than this. 

 

Posted by: @shiva

In any individual case, such as yourself, it (my estimation) would be bracketed by your grade and how many times per week you trained and how many annums. But the final factor would be, when you were driving through New mexico and you stopped in, whether or not I could "tag" you (not hit, just touch) with some Karate punch or another. We won't consider kicking, once my strongest point, because delivering a really good kick would probably find my on my butt (or worse) by my own efforts.

Couldn't we just train together? Everything anyone needs to know about their partners ability is perfectly determined in practicing and training together.

I once had a Shihan tell that I was a "brother" so to speak (meaning that he could determine my level of sensitivity and connectivity) simply by shaking my hand. We both realized we were both testing each other in the same moment, hehe, that was funny.

Other than that I am likely to disappoint you as a martial artist in many ways, I've never been that determined to train for street fighting and things like that, for me the art has been the development of my soft internal body, which began with my nei kung and taiji training. But since it is almost impossible learning how to apply nei kung in Taiji into any form of real genuine martial training, I was advised by my taiji teacher (legit from China) to study another martial art to learn how to apply it, and that was how I discovered Aikido. My training cycle is like this. I train hard for maybe 6 months to 2 years, sometimes hours a day sometimes just an hour. Then I get caught up with projects, work, parenting, fall out of the dojo for a year or so, and then somehow come back as if stronger than before I left. Odd. Because of COVID havent been to the dojo in more than a year, and my home dojo closed for good because of it 🙁

I'm already testing your Aikido, for full transparency sake 🙂

Posted by: @shiva

How should I know? I'm not a philosopher.

 

Touche'

Posted by: @shiva

But I'm not the one to discuss philosophy with. I have never attended a philosophy course, except for Oriental Med (they taught some far-out stuff of a rather practical nature), nor have I read Hegel, Marx, Descartes, etc. I confess to reading some Plato, but I got nothing out of it.

Meh, thats the old boring academic stuff. You're quite the natural philosopher and you've apparently have cultivated a school that is passing on philosophical tenets like the mage Pythagorus himself.

Thanks for sharing all you do!

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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@shiva

Posted by: @shiva

' It would be useless to insist on such a point
were it not for the fact that
many people confuse Philosophy with Magick.
Philosophy is the enemy of Magick.
Philosophy assures us that after all nothing matters,
and that “che sara sara.” '

Hmmm, thanks for finding this full quote. To me he is saying that Magick that is ALL THOUGHT and NO ACTION isnt magick at all, just philosophy, telling us a story to fall asleep to at night with nothing to wake up with in the morning.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Why did it take me so long to find this community? 

It wasn't your time yet. Past tense.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Couldn't we just train together?

No. I mean, Sure, you're right. At 81, I am being forced more and more into the fixed point applications. We all do, you know, even )-sensei and Koichi. Two of our LAShTAL members came here recently, at different times. One made it to the dojo, and then he got a little instruction on the side. The other was late due to a drunk or otherwise afflicted bus driver, so we did a short lesson. No training, per se. I'm too old for that stuff. I have one video of me doing Tai Chi. It includes a little Aikido at the end. Note that we were on concrete and the poor woman who was attacking me had never fallen one (in a martial fall) so I had to demonstrate benevolent endings (soft falls).

Something was going wrong in my feet. I told my wife we better get a video before i started loosing the ability to function properly. That was about 4 years ago. I would say that video was taken toward the end of my high-water phase. It's less than 12 minutes long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK8ANV_wA_0

My test of anyone is if I can touch them. I was fortunate enough to try this on my Aikido instructor (sensei) and his boss, Koichi Tohei. And I had plenty of time(s) to test myself against Nishiyama. I could always get through to a shodan aikidoka, but those other guys I mentioned were untouchable.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

for me the art has been the development of my soft internal body, which began with my nei kung and taiji training.

Right. Somebody like you won the annual Hong kong tournament. The one with no holds barred that they based the early VanDamme movie on (BloodSport?). He, this first guy, was a practitioner of internal tai Chi. Bruce Lee won it another year, so his skill is not to be belittled.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

he is saying that Magick that is ALL THOUGHT and NO ACTION isnt magick at all,

In that same book (4), he touches on this with a quote i can remember ...

Theosophists are people who talk about Magick, but do no work."

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

At 81, I am being forced more and more into the fixed point applications.

WOW. It is an honor to meet you sir!

I was trying to figure your age from all the histories you have shared.

In terms of the underground, you would be a national treasure 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Theosophists are people who talk about Magick, but do no work."

 

Ha good point.

Funny tho, many in the neo pagan community, Wiccas and the like, claim the same thing about modern ceremonial mages.

As I am new to this community and Lashtal, I am still clueless on the backgrounds here, you have mentioned a few times things like the solar temple, students, etc. Is there a resource to point me to for orientation? 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Koichi

That is amazing you trained with such a master! Unfortunately I've never had the opportunity to even train in his style of Aikido at a dojo, although my own style relates most to his so I have always wanted to.

In my experience, the highest level practitioner I have met and trained with is Andre Cognard Sensei. He is the heir apparent to the Kobyashi Aikido school, which is rare here in the US. He was the only teacher that would even attempt to teach the inner aspects of the art, which most dojos unfortunately either lack or do not know how to teach.

One day I will make it to Iwama in Japan to study the deeper lineage, which does not appear very overt at all in the Aiki Kai but I suspect in Tohei's school much carries over.

The Ommoto religion that influenced O Sensei was very suspiciously familiar, with their founder quite a Crowley type personality. Very shamanic and alchemical! O'sensei was also initiated into esoteric buddhism at the age of 7.

https://iwamashinshinaikido.com/about/

I miss Aikido !

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I am still clueless on the backgrounds here, you have mentioned a few times things like the solar temple, students, etc. Is there a resource to point me to for orientation? 

In my own case, the threads are the resource, and the details are in my books. I don't advertise or attend the other websites/forums. Let me give you a very brief bio of myself ...

1965-72: Grand Secretary General, IX*, Solar Lodge (of the OTO - now condemned as clandestine by the current (c)OTO, even though the OHO was 11 years old when Solar Lodge held sway during the darkest hours of post-AC, thelemic history).

1959-present: Training or teaching in Judo, Karate, Aikido, Kendo. Brown Belt in most of these, Shodan in Karate. There are two schools of thought: (1) Keep going for the higher grades. (2) get the Black belt and bow out of any higher grade seeking, because it gets all political. I was advised by one teacher to seek number (2), which i did. But when I "came back" 35 years later I was accepted at a higher level without jumping through the hoops. I was trained as a tournament judge and (had always been) allowed to sit in on the very small group (2-3 people) who decided who earned what grade, after they had shown their stuff in their examination.

1973-2005. Academia. Earned Doctor of Botanic Medicine, PhD in Education, Doctor of Oriental Medicine. Two Master's degrees in Oriental Medicine.

Vocation: Administrator of five medical schools, specializing in the one job that nobody else could do: Government paperwork, while maintaing a part-time practice as a licensed primary care physician. All this ended in 2005 when we packed up and left san Diego for rural New Mexico. The local campus of the University of New Mexico is only one-half mile away, out here where nothing else exists except farms, horses, cows, goats. They hired me to teach Tai Chi, Karate, and Qi Gong. So I finally got a government position, as the last token position in my external, working life.

With nothing left to do, I started writing books. I think the total number to date is 24. I have tried to cover the spiritual path from every possible angle: AA, OTO, Arcane School, Neurocircuits, Budo, Dzogchen, the Seven Rays, the 49 Ashrams, etc, always trying to cover what takes place in the daily life, or in consciousness, at each level. Over and over. I have just released my "last book," a month or two ago. It was available for free here (pdf version). It was/is the "last" because I'm finished with explaining the Path. I have a new book in motion now, but future books will have a different approach and will be limited to, say, 40 pages ... no more big books.

So that is my short-form Curriculum Vitae. I have omitted the A.'.A.'. stuff, the students thereof and their fate(s), and the three-year adventure in 3 countries where we kept ahead of the FBI, because that's been told so many times that it forms the core of the Legend of Frater Shiva. If you have any questions, please ask; I've written enough to convict myself several times over.

Allow me to introduce you to Ignant666, who hangs out here but has not gotten into our dialog, which seems to be you and me, probably with others watching. Ignant was a street-fighting drug lord in the lower east side of NYC. He gave that up to become a lawyer. He gave that up to get a doctorate and teach sociology, or anthropology, or something like that (I don't know exactly what). He started with Crowley around age 12, he did the work but never joined any lineage. Self-initiation, you know?

Tiger comes to us from Zen-land (not Zealand), offering common sense coded in cryptic lingo. He has not joined any fucking Orders or groups either. More self-initiation.

Christibrany joined us while he was still living with his mother and sister. You can find him in Colorado, if you can find him. He left the family home and did his duty in the US Army (as I did, as well, a long time ago), then he ended up being married, which is where we find him now, if you can find hime. Mein gott! He actually uses his real name, but never discloses his exact location. (It is 20 miles from the Shotokan Dojo that he will enter for the first time in the next couple weeks). He is an official initiate in an official lineage of the A.'.A.'., one of the more sane ones - there are others that are so scary we call them The Black lodge. He writes poetry, drinks beer, and plays drums.

It is my policy to not run on about other people, except for those who we are attacking or those who join us to attack us. These are known as drive-by posters, and some really terrible battles can take place around here. Your Budo will be sorely tested on the astral and mental planes if you happen to lock horns with one of these maniacs. But in this case, I have merely summarized what these folks have already told us about themselves. Dom is over there in the UK and he starts lots of threads. He will pick obscure topics that sometimes flop, but sometimes blow up into massively-long multilogues that go on forever. I think we may be chatting on two or three threads he initiated. WRWB (wellreadwellbred) was one called "The Greatest troll of All Time." Then he "went away," but then he "came back" with a different persona. He posts really long posts consisting of quotes from various known authors and unknown maniacs, but it's hard to see what relevance his posts have to the topic under discussion. We have been working with him lately, getting him to state his own opinion (instead of quoting others), and he has been responding in a positive direction. If and when RTC shows up again, you will have an opportunity to witness a miracle: An actual manifestation of Choronzon who brings up a few good points while condescending everyone else into the stupid bin. Lately, he has only shown up while introducing his bizarre marketing techniques for his books - which are not expensive and can raise good points out a mass of illogical and unproven data and claims. Yes, the circus come to town every now and then ... which is now overdue, like your (previously "our") earthquake in Calif is overdue. May you survive the big one, he prayed.

Other posters have their own Legends and Appointments, and they may give us their thoughts, but mostly they don't do Confessions about the details of their lives.

Right now, LAShTAL is running with a minimal crew. It used to be much bigger and ten threads would be running daily all around the world, all hours of the day and night. Fistfights and brawls were common, all the time.

This is The Aleister crowley Society. It is not a teaching site, nor an "occult" site, or a Thelemic site. Those anti-definitions come from the owner and moderator. No hero worship, though. most folks here have a definite capacity to distinguish Frater Perdurabo (an even Therion) from the imp Crowley.

I hope this gives you a brief picture in your mind as you look around the room, wondering if you're up to the next RTC invasion.


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Pertinax
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I miss Aikido !

Another Aikido person here. I've been practicing Koichi Tohei's style now for about 10 years, and will confirm that it really adds depth and dimension to the work, to the extent that I'm a little sad that it's almost unknown in magickal circles.

Koichi Tohei was not only chief instructor of O Sensei's organisation for 20 years, but was also a member of two other key orgs out of Japan, the Ichikukai, founded in memory of Yamaoka Tesshu and heavily involved in both zazen and misogi. He was also a member of the Tempu-kai, founded by Nakamura Tempu, who taught his Shinshintoitsu-do (the way of mind body unification), which was really an adaptation and development of the Raja Yoga that he learned in the Himalayas.

Tohei learned a lot from both of these lineages and incorporated it into his own practice, so his style is known as shinshintoitsu Aikido (Ki Aikido for short). 

Back when I was active in AA, this practice helped me pass through the system, and I consider it much deeper and more useful than anything in Liber E, gives much more useful instruction, and I would recommend it to anyone interested in developing their martial arts practice into something more profound. 

I don't know where in the US you are, but there are several lineage holders of Tohei's system over there. 


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Sanguine Chuck
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@shiva

Posted by: @shiva

So that is my short-form Curriculum Vitae. I have omitted the A.'.A.'. stuff, the students thereof and their fate(s), and the three-year adventure in 3 countries where we kept ahead of the FBI, because that's been told so many times that it forms the core of the Legend of Frater Shiva. If you have any questions, please ask; I've written enough to convict myself several times over.

Thank you for taking so much time to share all of that with me! I am sure the questions will slowly matriculate. I have family in New Mexico, so we may meet when you least expect it 🙂

If I would have found a community of such like-mindeness in Thelema/magick previously I may have never left.

Posted by: @shiva

Self-initiation, you know?

intimately

Posted by: @shiva

Your Budo will be sorely tested on the astral and mental planes if you happen to lock horns with one of these maniacs.

Oh that is probably the one area where my budo is exact and I look forward to meeting them too!

Posted by: @shiva

Fistfights and brawls were common, all the time.

as brothers fight ye hehe

Posted by: @shiva

 

I hope this gives you a brief picture in your mind as you look around the room, wondering if you're up to the next RTC invasion.

Time permitting yes! I'm actually heading overseas shortly, to the land of the Dharma, for a few months so I may disappear for a while, re-emerge, etc etc but I hope you do not mind that I have adopted this community as my new online home that, from time to time, I may exploit as a distraction from my own work. I take it I am in good hands here when I do that 🙂

And, you have even told me where to find you. Next time I head out to NM I will stop by the dojo and pay my regards.

more to come

SW56

 

PS: Actually, if you do not mind there is a thread I would like to start about Thelema, Liber AL, and history. I've attempted to raise this topic on a few Thelemic communities in the past to absolute crickets of a response, but again, those were not necessarily communities of like minds like this one, so I will give it a roll 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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@pertinax hey nice to meet another aikidoka. Here in LA. There was a Tohei school but it kind of scattered and I am not aware of any now. Main influence in LA has been Chiba Sensei from SD and a few other Aiki Kai schools.

As I will be scouring to find a new home dojo, if you know of any in the area yes the reference would be deeply appreciated.

Everything else you shared is very close to my own experience with Aikido. If it wasn't for my previous experience with internal arts, I probably would not have adapted to Aikido the way I did, as I started Aikido as a more advanced internal practitioner.

Also, Ive never really tested for rank, which for awhile I was kind of proud of, but now honestly I do regret it. In the beginning I changed dojos so much and one dojo would never recognize the other school. My last ranking I was awarded was 3rd Kyu in 2003. I usually am called up as an uki quite often, as I love being thrown around everywhere so my aikido is strongest when I am in the air 🙂

Also, sometimes I forget that I am getting older.

 

thx for the warm welcome everyone

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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@pertinax hey question on your logo. peacock angel or is that tibetan?

Do we have any peacock angel initiates in the house?

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Pertinax
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@sangewanchuck56

My UK affiliation with the ki no kenkyu kai is via the North West Ki Society in Oregon. There may well be something further south in California, I'll have to look into it as time permits.

Like you I started off internal, I practice Yang style Tai chi (the long 105 step form) from about age 19, then went heavily physical (British Army) before swinging back to the middle pillar, starting AA work and starting Aikido ten years later in about 2010 when I went to university in the UK. I've never looked back, and like you was initially slow to grade on account of moving around a lot. I finally obtained my shodan last November, training in a dojo in Japan where I currently live, at least for the next few months.

For us, my training partner and I, shodan wasn't important until we got to 1st kyu, and then it was like an obsession for the 9 months of training that led up to it. Now it's done, it's something chalked up, and the practice continues to deepen way beyond the physical techniques. It's not the most important thing, but the intensity of training that leads up to it is difficult to obtain without the pressure of an upcoming test, so it's certainly worth going through the system, not so much for the black belt, but for the training and dedication that it represents.

What I like about Ki Aikido is the fact that you can't grade in the Aikido side without first passing the corresponding ki tests, which are essentially examinations in Raja Yoga. The first of these got me through 2=9, and there are two more advanced than that before you can test for 1st kyu.

I'll have a look for local Ki Aikido dojos in the US, there may well be something in your area, in the meantime, well met! 


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Pertinax
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@sangewanchuck56

Re the peacock angel: Call it a hangover from my Neophyte days, I was a bit of a peacock angel fan back then due to early experiences, I retain it for dealing with the public in a magical/mystical capacity.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @shiva

Other posters have their own Legends

Pardon me Jamie, I meant to include your criteria. Jamie J Barter, who assumes other names in his posts, is over the great water in England town. He uses his civil name, but his address an detailed background is obscure. I don't think he practices any form of Budo, but he presents agreements, similarities, and alternatives, often based on illogical comments made by other posters.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

If I would have found a community of such like-mindeness in Thelema/magick previously I may have never left.

Ha and Aha! My most recent book outlines the temporary nature of hot groups. Chapter 23 of Liber 333 tells it all. We make many friends on the elevator ride up, but group functions, that function on the physical plane, and really get the gateways open, through work - not talk, are destined to a short life.

You really don't get anywhere in anything until you've either been graduated or expelled from some Order that served its purpose and either blew up, burned down, or was beginning to crumble.

We are protected from Anicca here because we are connected on the etheric plane (it's called the Internet). If we were to get together on the physical plane in order to do something externally, there would probably be dead bodies on the floor, and the police would be coming (again).

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

as brothers fight ye hehe

I went beyond brotherly fighting. The core posters are few now because we're the last men standing. the others quit or their account was closed due to insanity or lack of emotional control. Pity not the fallen. The battle of Armageddon is being fought here, right now. You have arrived at a lull in the commotions. The fallen go to Reddit or Heru-Ra-Ha, but Heru is closed to publick view now. Slim pickens only are available out there.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

And, you have even told me where to find you. Next time I head out to NM I will stop by the dojo and pay my regards.

Tome, NM. 25 miles south of Albuquerque, on the Rio Grande (more or less) - we can sort of see it (the Rio) but we're up on a desert hill - above any potential flood line. Exact directions are communicated via email for pending visitations. The dojo is closed, like the IV* OTO, it has been swept away  into annihilation. You will have to come to the residence.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Chiba Sensei

I attended the Chiba school for one month. It is traditional techniques, upholding the Uyeshiba style, without emphasis in Ki. Los Angeles Aikikai was a direct line to Tohei, but when sensei died and his son took over, I don't know where the allegiance went, or whether it's still going.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Do we have any peacock angel initiates in the house?

AC wrote something about the first true vision being that of the Universal Peacock. Not many Yezidis here, but some have had the vision and some have poked around in Persian corners.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Los Angeles Aikikai was a direct line to Tohei,

Very familiar with this dojo and have trained there many many times, great team, but this is news to be that it is extended from Tohei. Within the last few years they have totally changed their curriculum from Aiki Kai to Kobyashi Aikido, which I think is a big improvement.

 

Posted by: @shiva

AC wrote something about the first true vision being that of the Universal Peacock. Not many Yezidis here, but some have had the vision and some have poked around in Persian corners.

 

this is my next rabbit hole to explore when I have the time, primarily the peacock as an alchemical symbol and I can trace it from Yezidis to the Persians and then I find it again in Tibet. I have the least amount of knowledge of the Persian mages, and eager to learn more. It seems they show up everywhere else!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
(@sangewanchuck56)
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Posted by: @shiva

It is traditional techniques, upholding the Uyeshiba style, without emphasis in Ki.

Yeah Chiba school it is very lacking there, but the hardness of the style actually was sorely needed for me in my early years because I was a bit too soft and flowing and basically, not so grounded. They grounded me, lesson learned 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6190
 
Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

they have totally changed their curriculum from Aiki Kai to Kobyashi Aikido, which I think is a big improvement.

Let me recite the litany lineage. In 1963, LA Aikikai was governed by Isao Takahashi, 5th dan, highest grade in the USA, legendary Kendo guy. His direct upline was Koichi Tohei who, at that time, was the world-traveling Magus of Aikido - under the still alive O-sensei. Isao went to Chicago and he got a 6th dan for his efforts. The dojo back in LA went to his son Francis, whose heart was not really in it, and whose Kendo armor was loaned to me by his father. Isao died and Francis took over. It started to move back from Tohei style to Aikikai Tokyo techniques without the ki. Rod Kobayashi was one of the black belts when I hung around there. After Francis took over, I noted that he (Rod) had opened his own dojo, right down the street. If LA is teaching kobayashi style, then Frances has departed and Rod took over. This also means, to me, when you say it "got better," that the more graceful Tohei approach has come back to roost.

Speaking of graceful, here's a video of Isao takahashi. See if you can find a smoother style ... anywhere. I shot most of the original 8mm film, but I handed the camera off to someone else and I can be seen in the opening demos ... I am the tall skinny guy in a white belt with a gi so shrunken that it looks like a bathing suit from the 1920s ... Don't confuse him with the heavier guy who appears midway in the video. I don't know who he was, but he liked to swing people around like a merry-go-round ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqMOf-GSQw

O-sensei died and his introverted son took over. I watched the son do a demo, and standing next to me was Isao. I asked him if he could send an instructor to USC. He said, "I will come."

MWhile this was going on, Koichi Tohei got permission from the son to go off an start his own system. Granted. Today it come down to jutsu vs do (technique vs Tao - "way"). Or maybe technique vs ki. The moves are the same, but the emphasis (right from the beginning) tells which style is in play.

 


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
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Posts: 1825
 
Posted by: @shiva

Pardon me Jamie, I meant to include your criteria. Jamie J Barter, who assumes other names in his posts, is over the great water in England town. He uses his civil name, but his address an detailed background is obscure. I don't think he practices any form of Budo,

I did practice an obscure martial art called Sulkido under the equally obscure Master Kim at one time, however this thread seems to have got derailed some distance away from the 'value of TBOL', and ordinarily (that is, perhaps if you weren't having your ego stroked quite so much!?) you'd be policing it to that effect.... why dontcha don't you just start another fresh one on Aikido etc?

Deputisingly yours

N Joy


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

why dontcha don't you just start another fresh one on Aikido etc?

You are correct. Your life will be spared. I have no more to say in the martial sphere for now. If it comes up again someone will start a new thread.

I now must decide between harakiri or going to bed. But first ...

The Book of Lies was where all this meaningless esoteric stuff caught my attention. It became my Primer (primary book), which I carried around like a bible-toter for a while. But I did not preach, convert, or or evangelize, and I did not thump the book. So I guess I'm clear to have my life spared as well. For now.

 


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Tiger
(@tiger)
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Posts: 1857
 

“Soft and hollow, how thou dost overcome the hard and full!
To all impressions thus. Let them not overcome thee; yet let them breed within thee. The least of the impressions, come to its perfection…
Receive a thousand lovers

accept all impressions
but no impression must be allowed to dominate you, only to fructify you; just as the artist, seeing an object, does not worship it, but breeds a masterpiece from it. This process is exhibited as one aspect of the Great Work. "
chapter 4

“ Newton's First Law of Motion. The key to infinite power is to reach the Bornless Beyond. “
Chapter20 commentary

“ All skillfulness, all strain, all intention is contrary to ease.
Practise a thousand times, and it becomes difficult; a thousand thousand, and it becomes easy; a thousand thousand times a thousand thousand, and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that doeth itself through thee. Not until then is that which is done well done.
Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt from rock to rock of the moraine without ever casting his eyes upon the ground.”
Chapter32

Koichi Tohei
https://youtu.be/1G37Kyn3jXs

Nishiyama
https://youtu.be/jIu6E2rNKYI

Sulkido
https://youtu.be/F164UeMGltE


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David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
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Posts: 3205
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva

 

You are correct. Your life will be spared. I have no more to say in the martial sphere for now. If it comes up again someone will start a new thread.

I now must decide between harakiri or going to bed. But first ...

The Book of Lies was where all this meaningless esoteric stuff caught my attention. It became my Primer (primary book), which I carried around like a bible-toter for a while. But I did not preach, convert, or or evangelize, and I did not thump the book. So I guess I'm clear to have my life spared as well. For now.

 

How come you value this book over AL? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Sanguine Chuck
(@sangewanchuck56)
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Posts: 467
 

@shiva Okay, at the risk of further derailing this GREAT thread that covers BOOK OF LIES and WAR AND LOVE, back to Aikido for just a wee bit! Francis died years ago. That was LA's first dojo, and while it was Aiki Kai, Francis' style was very unique in comparison. I would train their frequently and after every class he was have a beer and a smoke!

I am not going to mention names, the lead student who took the school over is an incredible martial artist, I would always tell him he was "dripping with aikido charisma". He gave a few seminars with Andre Cognard and after that, changed styles of the dojo, with all black belts agreeing, and those not agreeing, left.

The improvement was not towards a more Tohei style but, in my opinion, from Aiki Kai to Kobyashi Aikido is just a superior style and school, managed incredibly by Andre Cognard Sensei. So LA Aiki Kai is now is one of two Kobyashi schools in LA.

Here is Cognard's Sensei Aikido. It can be ritualistic at times too

https://youtu.be/ZK06XJnf5Ds

and Isao Takahashi, WOW, amazing vid you shared!  he has a few students I have trained with, they have more of an Aikido club in LA or at least used to.

Back on topic 🙂

I also want to understand why Book of Lies is more relevant than Liber AL. Liber AL is still highly relevant to me even though I am not a Thelemic practioner (even tho I am).

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3651
 

I will try to think about the question "why is 333 > 220?", which is a good one. i know i agree with Shiva about this, but need to devote some thought to how to express why i think this. One obvious point is that 333 is very funny.

As to aikido: i spent about a year going once a week to the NY Aikikai in Chelsea in NYC in 1985 or so. The beefy sushi chefs who were our teachers would often indicate things like "Here can give hand in face, but this is not aikido", or "Here can roll elbow, and break, but this is not aikido". I think i learned a good deal more "not aikido" from them than i did aikido, but it was all good stuff. I have nothing further to contribute on this topic.

As to Shiva's "introducing the boys" roll-call: hello and welcome aboard from me; you'll fit right in here. While a good survey of the current main posters, Shiva left off two UK stalwarts, Michael Staley, Chief Tentacle-Cultist of the Typhonians, book publisher, and master of dry humor, and our genial host Paul (do not annoy him). There are other semi-regular posters, perhaps a couple dozen of them. No women who identify themselves as such have posted here in while since the last one got banned, for over-enthusiasm.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6190
 
Posted by: @dom

How come you value this book over AL? 

How come? There is no "reason." In the past, 333 taught me paradox and hinted (everywhere) as its resolution. AC said people should study AL and should apply those lines or instructions or whatever that they felt applied to themselves. I found more (self-applications) in 333.

I guess that's a "reason."

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

back to Aikido for just a wee bit!

Be careful. You've already seen the scribbling on the wall. If Frater LAShTAL, the Moderator, warns you about on/off topic, or your grammar, you better pay attention, or your clock may be stopped. But if Norma N Joy Conquest (the alter-id of Jamie J Barter) gets on your case, he may have a point (of order), but he barks without a bite.

You wanted a wee drp more before the bar closes due to pandemic concerns? Okay, let's risk the rath of the gods.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

and those not agreeing, left.

This is the history of the martial arts. In the old days, not really so long ago, such matters were settled by duels using yard-long razors.

image

Then came the Meiji [sic?] Restoration in the late 1800s. Samurai were prohibited from wearing swords in public. The outward rituals changed to non-deadly competition. The losers were allowed to disagree and go somewhere else. ALL the lineages started to split and divide. Shotokan Karetedo was split into three major factions. They all taught the same thing - they all had trained in the same school. Nobody was "better." It was politics and minor details. Aikido now exists (in my mind and on the ground) in three schools: (1) The O-sensei line, going to his introverted son, and is now upheld by his grandson.

(2) Gozo Shioda (9th dan) simply started his "hard-style Aikido" when the main dojo was inactive. The two schools never competed because there was no field to compete upon.

(3) Tohei got permission from the son to start his own style. How dignified. How traditionally correct. No fuss. No swords.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Cognard

Viewers who watch these videos may note that the guys who do these amazing things are old. The older they get, the more we see the inflexibility of age setting in, mostly in the legs and hips. They hobble around, or move stiffly, and they are forced from the wide, sweeping, dancing swings (the moving point) into a more self-centered poise (the fixed point), and they do things that look pre-arranged or "faked." Give me a break. If he be a master, you cannot touch him, so strike high or low, but be prepared for the fall (if you can even detect that you are falling).

The key to understanding that you've been dumped by a Master is found in the fact that you don't know what happened.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I am not a Thelemic practioner (even tho I am).

You demonstrate the paradox. Guess what? Those of us who favor 333 over 220, and even 418, simply prefer 333. There doesn't have to be a reason for one person to like Michelangelo's art and sculpture, and another person liking Mickey Mouse in The Sorcerer's Apprentice.  We are all different down here. We all find different meaningful keys and Libers.

Posted by: @ignant666

One obvious point is that 333 is very funny.

One will be lost in the jungle at night if they do not possess a sense of humor, especially about one's own importance. 

The other side of your point is that 220 is expansive, contractive, and samurai-violent, and there doesn't seem to be a joke anywhere. It is serous stuff, and I burned it in a ceremonial censer clay flower pot on April 9, 1984, thus proclaiming the end of the Aeon of Horus (for me).

220 is like classical philosophy (for me, and some others, too). It has some valuable concepts and lines, without jokes, but there are further revelations (Biblical and Tibetan, for example). Perdurabo did a good job, especially in the Class D arena. But he didn't reveal the full spectrum.

Posted by: @ignant666

I think i learned a good deal more "not aikido" from them than i did aikido

In the beginning, the gods created heaven and earth. In Aikido, they created the basic stages, wherein all is technique, and almost everybody tries to use force ... which either will not work, or will break something in the opponent. The difference in the schools/styles lies in whether the sensei chefs emphasize ki from the start, or emphasize justsu (technique) and leave the woo-woo ki stuff 'til later.

Posted by: @ignant666

Shiva left off two UK stalwarts, Michael Staley

I purposely left MS out as I would have said similar things about him, but identifying him as the [main dude] of an infamous lineage is outside my yama/niyama. Snce he is interested in non-dual concepts, I suggest he might have put the squabbles of Horus/Set behind him as well.

Please do not interpret my post-Horus remarks as indicating that I think any of us are operating outside the world of duality in our daily lives. It's just that the reference point (or non-point) for interpreting life has moved on to something other than the usual points.

Posted by: @ignant666

and our genial host Paul (do not annoy him).

Esoterically, he is The One about whom Nothing may be Said. What can I say?

 

 


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Sanguine Chuck
(@sangewanchuck56)
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Posts: 467
 

@shiva There are actually a few more lineages of O'Sensei believe it or not it is rather complex and I don't by any means know the full of it, but I do know of two other very powerful lineages that, I believe it was for political reasons, were not promoted along with Aiki Kai and Hombu Dojo.

These two lineages that i am both aware of and have trained with are 1.) Kobayashi Lineage that Cognard sensei currently leads. Kobayashi was O Sensei's main uke at Iwama dojo, which was O Sensei's real dojo in terms of the spiritual side of Aikido. Kobayashi went on to bring Aikido to Mongolia and Russia primarily, and then it spread into parts of Europe. Some of the Kobayashi school do seem a little miffed that they have been left out of most conversation. 

There are different styles of Aikido based on when and what period he was in, so the Iwama lineage (only practiced at the dojo and Iwama shrine and the Kobayashi school were from specific periods of his teaching. Lots of strange politics all going on there i have no idea.

Posted by: @ignant666

As to Shiva's "introducing the boys" roll-call: hello and welcome aboard from me; you'll fit right in here.

Thank you! 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Posts: 6190
 
Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

There are actually a few more lineages of O'Sensei believe it or not

I understand that. I was merely citing the three big leagues. There are also more than the three divisions of Shotokan. Anybody is free to start their own dojo with even a brown belt, and many are not affiliated with a known lineage or org.

It's the same in the A.'.A.'.. Holy cow, a Probationer like Motta was able to claim Magister and open an OTO without ever being admitted to its basic entry tent.

Of course, we're probably talking about advanced students of the founder. I know about the complexity. each thread has its own story. The only thing that counts is how good they are and how well they can pass it on (2 things).

 


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