Notifications
Clear all

What Crowley Says He Didn't Do  

  RSS

 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/12/2010 5:30 am  

Dear fellow members of the Aleister Crowley Society,

I would be very interested - in the spirit of my non-partisan devotion to the study of Aleister Crowley, which is of course, what this site is all about, as long as ... - to hear about other examples of the following sort.

In his extensive enthusiastic cannabis essay entitled “The Psychology of Hashish”, which he wrote under the pseudonym Oliver Haddo, Aleister Crowley makes two very startling points where he declares never to have succeeded at elementary practises which he nonetheless went on and included in his official canon of instructions for the A.A. (which presumably one would only presume to effectively teach if one could actually endorse personally and with the authority of personal success), and expounded upon at length in his other works, as though he had something to say about successful practise of them from personal experience when he clearly says below that he has not.

I read this essay again a few months ago for the first time in a couple of decades (not for want of field work of my own), and I was amused by both statements.

Rather than give page numbers, just search for the quoted text below online, there are lots of online editions of this essay, which was originally published in the (original, actual) Equinox.

I see no reason to believe he was being ironic or tongue-in-cheek in these particular passages, the tone of the entire essay on cannabis is quite straightforward and sincere. If it wasn't, or if I have made any mistakes in my reading, please let me know so I can correct them.

Best regards,
Noctifer.

Incongruency Number 1.: Liber Thisharb.

“First, the cultivation of the "magical memory." The practice is to remember the events of the day backwards; i.e., first dinner, then tea, lunch, and breakfast. Except, of course, that by this time one has abandoned meals for ever! The memory acquires the habit, and eventually goes on working backwards through sleep, back, back, through birth and previous states until (saith Bhikhu Ananda Metteyya) going ever back through the past one comes right round to the future -- "Which is pretty, but I don't know what it means!"

I think it right to mention that I never obtained any sort of success in this meditation, and only give it on hearsay.”

Incongruency number 2.: Basic Concentration, particularly the annihilation of thought cf. Liber Yod

“Plainly, we know so very little; so few ever attain this class of experience that one is perhaps hardly justified in maintaining (as I always have maintained and that stoutly) that the reward is according to the work. It may conceivably be that work does not affect the question, as it clearly does in the lower grades, it may be that an outsider may pull off the big thing -- Agnosco!
Still, I advise people to work at it.
Perhaps the most direct method is that of sitting in your Ajna Chakra (that point in your brain where thoughts rise, a point to be discovered and rendered self-conscious by repeated experiment) and without thinking of anything whatever, killing the thoughts as they rise with a single smack, like a child killing flies. The difficulty is of course to kill them without thinking of the killing, which thought is naturally just as bad as any other thought. I never got any good out of this method myself.”


Quote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1264
15/12/2010 9:10 am  

In 'The Magical Dilemma of Victor Neuburg' Jean Overton Fuller, builds quite a strong case against Crowley for failing to both understand and teach yogic breathing techniques correctly. In fact, so bad was Crowleys teaching, Fuller writes, that the life of Neuburg was endangered due to Crowleys misunderstanding of breathing exercises.

So I am not really surprised by Crowleys admission.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/12/2010 11:07 am  

Greetings, Noctifer! 🙂

"Noctifer" wrote:
Dear fellow members of the Aleister Crowley Society,

I would be very interested - in the spirit of my non-partisan devotion to the study of Aleister Crowley, which is of course, what this site is all about, as long as ... - to hear about….

Generally speaking, perhaps a small effort to see the personal cost of being legally (and in many other ways too) exposed while running a website, would throw some light on certain reactions. It’s always easier for the ones of us who speak anonymously to complain about the efforts to keep a balance by applying certain standards, but I’m not sure how productive this is when it comes to the real world problems.

"Noctifer" wrote:
In his extensive enthusiastic cannabis essay entitled “The Psychology of Hashish”, which he wrote under the pseudonym Oliver Haddo, Aleister Crowley makes two very startling points where he declares never to have succeeded at elementary practises which he nonetheless went on and included in his official canon of instructions for the A.A. (which presumably one would only presume to effectively teach if one could actually endorse personally and with the authority of personal success), and expounded upon at length in his other works, as though he had something to say about successful practise of them from personal experience when he clearly says below that he has not.

I’m not a Crowley expert, as you know, but after reading your post I felt like sharing my own experience regarding the subject.

Being a channeler I often find myself suggesting things that I have no knowledge about and even not being able to perform them myself. (In this case I always make it clear to people, because I don’t wish to create the wrong impressions). However, in the end I realize that the ones who followed these suggestions, managed to obtain the wanted results in various degrees, according to their intentions and their own commitment to the task.

Perhaps this is not as “scientific” as some would like it to be, but I think it doesn’t prove the sort of incongruity that you seem to suggest in your post, either.

Kind Regards
Hecate


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/12/2010 11:25 am  

As others in previous posts, I'm not to surprised by Crowley's statements. One strong point to the argument is that Crowley's declarations, I admit I refer to diaries more than to proper works, vary wildly according to the author's spirits and particular moment of writing: There are some passages in which Crowley describes himself as the fiery logos of the aeon, others (rare, I know 😉 ) in which he is more humble and admits to not being able to pull himself together and get his magickal work done.
Having said that I agree wholeheartedly with Hecate: One need not be the best at performing a certain task in order to realise its worth and recommend it to other people. My doctor is 80 years old, and suggested I start playing football again for a variety of reasons. He never got the knack of the game and wouldn't perform well as a wingback, but nevertheless he strongly believes in his prescription in my regards.
Just my opinion.


ReplyQuote
the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
15/12/2010 11:54 am  

93!

Here are my two cents:

I would say that Crowley specifically did not want to appear as Crowley when he wrote The Herb Dangerous, in fact he used pseudonyms whenever he wrote on Drugs, like in the English Review years later. So I don't see it as a confession of things he did not do. In my opinion his other work shows that he worked with both methods quite successfully. Anyway, it's just another question that we cannot finally answer, it might even have been asked by wellredwellbred...

Also I would be very careful with what Mrs. Fuller wrote about Crowley. She obviously despised the man because she thought he destroyed Neuburg, which even Neuburg did not think. Since we know that Crowley's take on yoga was not really the "official yoga" (there are threads on that here) there probably is some truth in the statement. But to say Neuburg was in serious danger is probably too much. Neuburg always had his own ways of practicing magical techniques, he - as far as I know - never sticked close to any instructions. But it worked...

Love=law
Lutz


ReplyQuote
empiricus
(@empiricus)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 121
15/12/2010 12:02 pm  

93,

This promises to be both a very interesting and informative thread but possibly requires a genuinely open, critical and investigative approach with an attitude tending to resist any easy but dubious reductions or overly hasty conclusions.

Jean Overton Fuller's case against Crowley's understanding and teaching of authentic Indian yogic pranayama is indeed quite strong but it appears that Crowley was, by his own honest and open admissions, no seasoned student or practitioner, let alone teacher, of the classic Indian yogic traditions. This honesty is also supported by his quotes in the first post in this thread concerning his own lack of results from some methods, yet openess to the possibility that someone else may achieve the results promised, if practiced in the way described, each according to their respective nature, past experience and disposition.

In a letter to Gerald Yorke, November 7, 1945 (Now in the Warburg Institute collection and quoted in 'Brother Curwen, Bother Crowley: A Correspondence'; Aleister Crowley & David Curwen; Edited by Henrik Bogdan; The Teitan Press, 2010.), Crowley wrote: "I think you are wrong about my history. I did practically no Yoga of any kind after my return from my first journey to India. I attempted to resume practices at Boleskine and elsewhere, and could not force myself to do them. The Samadhi is a sort of bye-product of Abramelin."

If we look at the available record, even though Crowley recommended the use of yoga, and presumably taught various yogic techniques to others, with various degrees of success and failure, he appears to have all but given the formal practices up himself before the end of 1901, after only about three or four months erratic immersion in them between August and, at best, November, 1901. Naturally, Crowley had problems with the asceticism involved and, as Richard Kaczynski has noted ('Perdurabo: The Life of Aleister Crowley'; revised and expanded edition; North Atlantic Books, Berkeley, California, 2010; p95), he favoured bouts of indulgence and satiation of his impulse to rid his mind of distraction over the traditional asceticism of repressing them back into the subconcious only to have them return with greater force.

Crowley appears to have commenced the study and practice of yoga under Bennet's instructions on August 28, 1901, and considered that he had achieved Dhyana on October 3. He wrote of what he claimed to be his attainment in 'The Equinox' 1910, 1(4):166 - Kaczynski's reference, op cit, unchecked - and clarified the explanation of it in 'Book Four', 1911,p 32.

Crowley looks never to have seen asana and pranayama as exclusively hatha yoga studies and advanced reasonably cogent and plausible but not necessarily unchallengeable arguments to support his view. He considered that he was able to "....simplify the process of spiritual development by eliminating all dogmatic accretions." ('The Confessions of Aleister Crowley: An Autohagiography'; Edited by John Symonds and Kenneth Grant, p.240 in the 1989 Penguin Arkana edition.) A really thorough, careful reading and reflection on Chapter 28 is well worth the effort for anyone interested in what Crowley either thought he was up to or wanted us to think he was up to here! To his credit, he does point out there that if a person wants to add their experience to the sum of scientific knowledge they can only publish the methods by which they gained illumination. He emphasised that this was what he had striven to do, while endevouring to make it clear that his results were only of value to himself and may need modification in every case, peculiar to any particular aspirant's idiosyncrasies.(op cit p.241).

All the best,
93 93/93


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1264
15/12/2010 12:22 pm  

Jean Overton Fuller's case against Crowley's understanding and teaching of authentic Indian yogic pranayama is indeed quite strong but it appears that Crowley was, by his own honest and open admissions, no seasoned student or practitioner, let alone teacher, of the classic Indian yogic traditions.

I guess the question would then be, should Crowley be making attempts to teach others? I mean, would you take driving lessons from someone who has not yet mastered driving?

Perhaps it was Crowley's sadism - rather than any desire to inform - that provided the bigger influence at Boleskine.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/12/2010 12:49 pm  

Greetings!

"michaelclarke18" wrote:
I guess the question would then be, should Crowley be making attempts to teach others? I mean, would you take driving lessons from someone who has not yet mastered driving?

I understand where you come from and I agree with you at some extent, but one would ask: is it really the mastery of the teacher what makes the student perfect? 😉

Kind Regards
Hecate


ReplyQuote
empiricus
(@empiricus)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 121
15/12/2010 1:02 pm  

93,

I honestly don't know the answer, nor feel qualified to make judgements about what you refer to as "Crowley's sadism." However, I am mindful and appreciative of the note of caution in the second paragraph of the real_simon_iff's post above as a context for the discussion of this particular point. I don't know enough about the detail of relationship between Crowley and Neuburg and now will probably never be in a position to improve my knowledge of it in a relevant way where this point is concerned. How did it come to pass that Crowley offered to teach, Neuburg accept, on what basis, and follow his teachings on 'yogic' asana and pranayama? Any evidence Crowley might have been saying any more than he considered he had successfully experimented with Eastern breathing techniques to induce trance and illuminating states of consciousness as a support for Magick, and offered to teach Neuburg what he knew and how he achieved his results?

I might not take lessons in anything from someone who has not 'mastered' what they are purporting to teach but how high am I going to set the standards of 'mastery' in any given context? Sometimes I may take instruction from someone with only a little more experience that I have or a fellow student who appears to have obviously grasped some aspect of it better than I have. I think I first started to learn about driving a car from someone who had just passed their test but was far from having 'mastered' the art and driving a motor bike from a friend before they had passed their test! I just want to be a bit more cautious about projecting a particular view on the Crowley-Neuburg relationship where this particular issue is concerned, without prejudice to the fact that you may well have a very good point.

All the best


ReplyQuote
phthah
(@phthah)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 210
15/12/2010 2:02 pm  

93 Lutz,

"the_real_simon_iff" wrote:
I would say that Crowley specifically did not want to appear as Crowley when he wrote The Herb Dangerous, in fact he used pseudonyms whenever he wrote on Drugs, like in the English Review years later. So I don't see it as a confession of things he did not do. In my opinion his other work shows that he worked with both methods quite successfully...

Indeed! In fact, this thread could have ended on these comments alone, IMO!

93 93/93
phthah


ReplyQuote
the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
15/12/2010 2:13 pm  

93!

Ah, Neuburg and Crowley, there waits a book to be written (not by me).

Anyway, in my opinion, which is based on the limited research I am capable of, the teacher-student relationship between the two men became nearly interchangeable during the years of their collaboration. It is clear that Crowley was in the beginning Neuburg's teacher, in any case in Neuburg's eyes, acting as his Neophyte during the latter's Probationer initiation in London and later during Neuburg's Magical Retirement at Boleskine which would be regarded as his Neophyte initiation. As far as I see, the yoga practices Crowley taught were very basic (dragon asana, mantra exercises, basic pranayama: 8 minutes of 20 seconds in and 40 seconds out for example) and were almost exclusively employed - with varying success, due to Neuburg's yogic "clumsiness" - to relax Neuburg, who had family and money troubles after finishing Cambridge with only Third Class Honours (Crowley writes: "Pranayama is grateful and comforting. It warms Probationers.") and to ground the space for Neuburg's speciality: Astral Travel. Mostly Neuburg used The Bornless Ritual and other Goetic Invocations. Crowley had seen very early that Neuburg had a tremendous capacity for Astral Travel and Mediumistic Techniques. Also one should never forget - and it is maybe the most important factor - that the two men had started a homosexual relationship, possibly with SM undertones, while hiking through Spain the year before. It is my conviction that both fell deeply and romatically in love with each other and none of them ever overcame that love when they finally parted (although that finally might not be as final as Mrs. Fuller thought it to be), leaving Neuburg shattered and Crowley disgruntled and angry. The following years (after the Boleskine Retirement) they worked together with fantastic success, Neuburg as a passive medium and vessel for the spirits, with Crowley by and by developing and refining his system of Sexual Magick, where Neuburg mostly played the active part: The Vision and The Voice Working (regarded by Crowley as second in importance to Liber AL), The Bartzabel Working (although this one without sex), The Rites of Eleusis (with sublimated sex), The Paris Working. Mostly they were working "on the fly" without a definite script, exploring the techniques together, not in a strict teacher-student sense, and probably disregarding the yoga stuff of the early Golden-Dawn-ish years completely. Also both their creative output in poetry don't assign a teacher or student role to any one of them. In short: Even if Crowley was not qualified to be a teacher of yoga, their studies lead them to a unique and very successful system of magic. And if we take magick as an art form, then there is no classic teacher-student relation possible anyway.

But I digress. In view of Noc's question I would (and did) say that a) Oliver Haddo is NOT the exact Aleister Crowley; b) Aleister Crowley did what he said Oliver Haddo didn't do and c) in Crowley's metier the student-teacher relationship may not be as well-defined as in "classic" yoga for example.

Love=Law
Lutz


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1264
15/12/2010 2:56 pm  

I understand where you come from and I agree with you at some extent, but one would ask: is it really the mastery of the teacher what makes the student perfect?

It isn't really a question of mastery, it's just a question of being able to do the basic things in a competent fashion.

"Crowley's sadism."

There seems to be plenty of evidence - that I don't have to hand - that Crowley appears to have enjoyed inflicting pain on some of his followers. But of course, one will never really know.


ReplyQuote
HG
 HG
(@hg)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 96
15/12/2010 3:52 pm  
"michaelclarke18" wrote:

"Crowley's sadism."

There seems to be plenty of evidence - that I don't have to hand - that Crowley appears to have enjoyed inflicting pain on some of his followers. But of course, one will never really know.

"After putting Neuburg through this initiation," (Footnote: "The preparation for this was in some ways trying to the candidate. For instance, he had to sleep naked for seven nights on a litter of gorse.")

-The Confessions of Aleister Crowley, chapter 65

"Nature is cruel; but I too am a Sadist."

-The Book of Lies, chapter 79


ReplyQuote
empiricus
(@empiricus)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 121
15/12/2010 4:42 pm  

93,

Many thanks indeed Lutz - an excellent, well-informed and timely digression from where I am sitting! The following succinct answer to Noctifer's original question is also spot on for me. HG's offer of 'evidence' not immediately to Michael's hand moves me slightly less, grateful though I am for it, as the first is not necessarily evidence of sadism and the second, although I could perhaps be prepared to accept it at face value in one way, does indeed come from the 'Book of Lies'!

All the best,
93, 93/93


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/12/2010 6:47 pm  

I don't buy 'Nature is cruel' as being literally true either but I suppose you could see it that way. Seems more like a human projection similar the comments about Sadism regarding the OP.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/12/2010 11:23 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
Incongruency number 2.: Basic Concentration, particularly the annihilation of thought cf. Liber Yod

“Plainly, we know so very little; so few ever attain this class of experience that one is perhaps hardly justified in maintaining (as I always have maintained and that stoutly) that the reward is according to the work. It may conceivably be that work does not affect the question, as it clearly does in the lower grades, it may be that an outsider may pull off the big thing -- Agnosco!
Still, I advise people to work at it.
Perhaps the most direct method is that of sitting in your Ajna Chakra (that point in your brain where thoughts rise, a point to be discovered and rendered self-conscious by repeated experiment) and without thinking of anything whatever, killing the thoughts as they rise with a single smack, like a child killing flies. The difficulty is of course to kill them without thinking of the killing, which thought is naturally just as bad as any other thought. I never got any good out of this method myself.”

Would this be the practice from Liber Yod in question?! [Bold text mine.]

(We add the following, contributed by a friend at that time without the A: A: and its dependent orders. He worked out the method himself, and we think it may prove useful to many. O.M.)
(1) The beginner must first practise breathing regularly through the nose,
at the same time trying hard to believe that the breath goes to the Ajna and
not to the lungs.
The Pranayama exercises described in the Equinox Vol. I, No. 4, p. 101 must
next be practised, always with the idea that Ajna is breathing.
Try to realise that power, not air, is being drawn into the Ajna, is being
concentrated there during Kumbhakam, and is vivifying the Ajna during
expiration. Try rather to increase the force of concentration in Ajna than
to increase so excessively the length of Kumbhakam as this is dangerous if
rashly undertaken.
(2) Walk slowly in a quiet place; realise that the legs are moving, and
study their movements. Understand thoroughly that these movements are due to
nerve messages sent down from the brain, and that the controlling power lies
in the Ajna. The legs are automatic, like those of a wooden monkey: the
power in Ajna is that which does the work, is that which walks. This is not
hard to realise, and should be grasped firmly, ignoring all other walking
sensations.
Apply this method to every other muscular movement.
(3) Lie flat on the back with the feet under a heavy piece of furniture.
Keeping the spine straight and the arms in a line with the body, rise slowly
to a sitting posture, by means of the force residing in the Ajna (i.e. try to
prevent the mind dwelling one any other exertion or sensation.)
Then let the body slowly down to its original position. Repeat
this two or three times, every night and morning, and slowly increase the
number of repetitions.
(4) Try to transfer all bodily sensations to the Ajna, e.g., "I am cold"
should mean "I feel cold", or better still, "I am aware of a sensation of
cold" --- transfer this to the Ajna, "the Ajna is aware", etc.
(5) Pain if very slight may easily be transferred to the Ajna after a
little practice. The best method for beginner is to imagine he has a pain in
the body and then imagine that it passes directly into the Ajna. It does not
pass through the intervening structures, but goes direct. After continual
practice even severe pain may be transferred to the Ajna.
(6) Fix the mind on the base of the spine and then gradually move the
thoughts upwards to the Ajna.
(In this meditation Ajna is a Holy of Holies, but it is dark and empty.)
Finally, strive hard to drive anger and other obsessing thoughts into the
Ajna. Try to develop a tendency to think hard of Ajna when these thoughts
attack the mind, and let Ajna conquer them.
Beware of thinking of "My Ajna". In these meditations and practices, Ajna
does not belong to you; Ajna is the master and worker, you are the wooden
monkey.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/12/2010 8:36 am  

I wouldn't be surprised if he never performed half of the techniques he prescribed. Though I do remember reading somewhere in his writings that he had some considerable success with Dharana after a few weeks of practice.
Who can say. Maybe he should have gotten a damn job.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
16/12/2010 11:13 am  

93,

"AEternitas" wrote:
Who can say. Maybe he should have gotten a damn job.

I've thought this so many times over about Crowley that it has almost become synonymous with thoughts of the man, AEternitas.

On topic...

Still, like the physician analogy that someone made above, I think it is important to consider Crowley's work as a compiler of sorts. Surely he attained, but did he attain using every method? Perhaps a better question is, could he have attained using every method?

The question then becomes a matter of attainment. Once one has attained enlightenment, one has attained enlightenment, and has done so in a particular manner, varying according to the nature of the individual.

So then, it may not be wrong for him to say, "I attained using method A, but method B is also widely known to provide the proper avenues for attainment. Therefore, you may want to try method B if method A doesn't seem to fit your fancy."

Some people use blue crayons, some use yellow ones. The important thing is to color the picture. If Crowley used red crayons to color the picture, and prescribed purple crayons, he was still prescribing crayons and not mailboxes, if that makes any sense.

93 93/93


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/12/2010 5:22 pm  

When I look at most books on Modern Magick, it seems obviously appearant that the writer doesn't have half a clue what he's talking about and has probably less practical experience with what he is writing about. Examplles include anything by Donald Tyson and the second half of Modern Magick by Donald Michael Kraig.
Crowley seems to actually have some experience with what he is talking about, even if it is limited. Some of his Yoga instrctions are pure crap, but at least he touched upon a subject that few in his time or ours (in magical circles) ever do.
I can't sit with a cup on my head for an hour and I never will, I'd have to be as fit as a lifeguard to perform those pranyama exercises he talks about and I never would even have gotten to the practice of concentration if I insisted on following the rules he laid out. His asanas are terrible for a western person and I'm quite sure if I sat in one for an hour every day I would and up with bone and nerve injuries.
Even his instructions on rising on the planes are a bit lacking compared to the GD originals.
But all f the above basics, however flawed are an excellent starting point for anybody and the pure impossibility of them is enough t chase off all but the most worthy of students.
His work isn't without it's merit.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/12/2010 6:39 pm  

This is absurd as a criticism of Crowley as a practitioner or as a teacher. This Ajna meditation addendum to Liber Yod even came with a disclaimer (see above) that it was being given as a unofficial supplement to Liber Yod that might be helpful to some. I learned a variation of this same meditation myself from a man that I met at SRF in LA in '68 and it was no use to me either - even after considerable time and effort. (It was years before I figured out why.) In contrast, the following year, after few weeks working with the three bits of yoga in Liber E (combined into a single meditation, which was not strictly per AC's instructions), I had good results - after a few months, excellent results. (I thank my 'lucky Star' to this day that did this work before beginning the practices given in Liber O.) This comment quoted from AC in 'Psych of Hash' reflects a perfectly normal comparison of the merits of one meditation over others, from the personal perspective of one practitioner.

So typical of Noc, when it is suggested in another thread that he stay within the context of this website, the life and work of AC, that he attacks AC here, as if this might prove AC unworthy of such attention. 🙄


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/12/2010 7:54 pm  

Another point that was raised already is that Crowley wrote not only with different surnames, but as different people entirely, with different experiences, opinions and personalities.
I don't think this was an attack on AC, but a valid inquiry.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/12/2010 7:56 pm  

Greetings! 🙂

"Camlion" wrote:
So typical of Noc, when it is suggested in another thread that he stay within the context of this website, the life and work of AC, that he attacks AC here, as if this might prove AC unworthy of such attention. 🙄

I believe this is part of what is usually called “group psychology”. There is a constant interaction on a subconscious level and everyone in the group finds a role to play that fits both his/her and the group’s needs, perfectly.

The manifestation of every aspect of the collective is necessary in order to keep the group energy balanced. When a member leaves, another one comes forth to take the former’s role, at least until the featured issue, attitude, etc, has been addressed by all the participants to some extent.

Moreover, I found that, having a group member playing the role of “Devil’s advocate”, is a blessing in disguise. That is to say, it is better to assign this role to a caring family member than to a total stranger who wouldn’t give a dime for the benefit of the group.

This is why I felt nice having Ian Rons around (although telling him so didn't help much), even if I couldn’t stand the tension at times, and this is why I feel grateful to Noctifer for undertaking a similar role now and then. 😉

Regards
Hecate


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/12/2010 8:20 pm  

I like and sometimes miss Ian, despite himself. Thank you, Mom, for recalling to me a pleasant thought. 🙂


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/12/2010 9:13 pm  
"AEternitas" wrote:
I don't think this was an attack on AC, but a valid inquiry.

Only barely disguised as a valid inquiry, considering the timing, although I believe the issue has been brought up here before, involving Noc then, too, I believe.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
17/12/2010 5:54 am  

Regarding the OP, I see it as Crowley speaking honestly and with candor to express the difficulties of those practices. In must be something in human nature to make him out or assume him to be a Guru then criticize when he isn't. I see him more as a research scientist, and a brilliant one at that!


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/12/2010 3:06 am  

I think we in the west tend to romantisize Hindooism a bit. We think that Hindooism was all these aesetic saints either up in the trees holding their breath in interesting ways or riding around on tigers thinking pure thoughts about Brahma's nice sweater. Actually Ashrams were the Theme Parks (Disneylands) of ancient India where carnival barkers (gurus) would run various rollar coasters (samahdis) - sometimes there would be weird tents out back (tantra) where you could see nakud ladies for 10 rupees (kundalini).

Watch out for pot. It very slowly numbs your brain's pleasure centers with continual use. You might suddenly wake up after years of bong loads and there you are in your fifties unable to enjoy even the purty lava lamp anymore.


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2575
19/12/2010 3:56 am  

i like that idea hecate. it seems very sensible to me and i had not ever thought of that. can i be the group house cat please? rolls over for a belly rub.


ReplyQuote
Share: